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Old 14-12-2010, 02:04   #91
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The other Point to make also is that in areas of activity where mishaps may lead to injury or death then insurance is usually carried. This is why car insurance is mandatory, not because you may damage another car but that accidents tend to lead to injuries or death.

The same is true of other leisure activities. I occasionally hunt. Because a misadventure there most likely involves me injuring others I carry liability insurance.

But boating incidents rarely involve serious Injury. Mainly it involves property damage , In this case it's the owners responsibility to insure that risk against their property and generally that's why insurance isn't required in these activities
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Old 14-12-2010, 03:06   #92
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Liability for personal injury is a factor in some types of insurance such as driving etc. In boating I'd imagine the risk premium for injury is modest and that the bulk of the premium goes towards catastrophic damage or loss of the vessel.

And with boats the damage can be very, very expensive (not to mention salvage claims). I have two acquaintances in the club who've had complete write-offs totaling about $150k each. One struck a reef and the other was caught in a typhoon. Both were insured.

I'm not sure what happens when one uninsured boat drags it's anchor and wipes out another uninsured boat? Fighting irons on the beach....
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Old 14-12-2010, 10:26   #93
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The difference is that driving is a privilege. Keep forcing more insurance and coverage more rules for everyones benefit and our cruising will become a heavily controlled privilege as well. With the full governmental controls and restrictive rules it will enforce that always come along with it. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
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Old 14-12-2010, 11:09   #94
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I'm not sure what happens when one uninsured boat drags it's anchor and wipes out another uninsured boat? Fighting irons on the beach....
One alternative to a liability problem in a far away place is they toss you in jail until the relatives show up with the money. They can wait. Being uninsured does not convey the right to be without liability. In most parts of the world being uninsured is no problem but not paying liabilities is a criminal offense. When two uninsured parties are involved there may be a process for assigning liability or someone may just accuse you and let you prove it to be false..

With a sunken boat there is always the environmental liability claims. You lost your boat - no problem because no one cares about you. Your boat leaked all sorts of fuel and made a mess . They care about your mess. The natives will pick the hull clean and leave the mess for you. without a boat you clearly are not going any place easily.

As a cruiser you have no rights at all. Being in another country is a privilege. Failure to conduct yourself properly is a criminal violation one way or another. You are not required to have insurance by law you are just required to pay all the claims or face criminal charges. A marina will want the assurance you can pay before they let you in.
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Old 14-12-2010, 11:38   #95
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As a cruiser you have no rights at all. Being in another country is a privilege. Failure to conduct yourself properly is a criminal violation one way or another. You are not required to have insurance by law you are just required to pay all the claims or face criminal charges. A marina will want the assurance you can pay before they let you in.
Pblais, Thats somewhat of an over statement, you have those rights assigned to you by the host country , which in the developed world are extensive. Yes there are places that can lock you up , but generally thats not an insurance issues, merely a human rights one.

Secondly failure to pay a civil liability is not a criminal offense. The case could be either a simply civil case, ie an insurance company chasing you to pay or (b) in some countries it could be a criminal case. But its not as definte as you suggest.

No marina that I have entered has sought "assurances " that I can pay, most marinas in my experience, let you run up berthing on credit actually.
( none of this has to do with insurance or not )

Youre scare mongering though

Dave
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Old 14-12-2010, 12:33   #96
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One alternative to a liability problem in a far away place is they toss you in jail until the relatives show up with the money. They can wait. Being uninsured does not convey the right to be without liability. In most parts of the world being uninsured is no problem but not paying liabilities is a criminal offense. When two uninsured parties are involved there may be a process for assigning liability or someone may just accuse you and let you prove it to be false..

With a sunken boat there is always the environmental liability claims. You lost your boat - no problem because no one cares about you. Your boat leaked all sorts of fuel and made a mess . They care about your mess. The natives will pick the hull clean and leave the mess for you. without a boat you clearly are not going any place easily.

As a cruiser you have no rights at all. Being in another country is a privilege. Failure to conduct yourself properly is a criminal violation one way or another. You are not required to have insurance by law you are just required to pay all the claims or face criminal charges. A marina will want the assurance you can pay before they let you in.
I think you may be confusing how you wish the world was. and how it is.
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:43   #97
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OK, I can live with being (short-sighted, near-sighted, myopic, <insert adjective here>). I've got pretty thick skin. I'd prefer being told I'm wrong than live a life of delusion. I appreciate teh feedback.

So, if as a result of my own negligence I accidentally cause damage to you, your vessel or crew which causes you to incur a financial burden and turn to you and say "Hey, sorry about that. My bad." Then I walk away............. is that ok?

I'm not arguing or trying to convince someone to change their position on this topic. I'm not demanding that someone convinve me otherwise. It's just an honest, naieve question on my part.
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:53   #98
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"This is why car insurance is mandatory, not because you may damage another car but that accidents tend to lead to injuries or death. "
You left out one key phrase: "injuries or death TO OTHERS."

If you kill yourself, that's your privilege. It was because the early motor cars were knocking down fences (property damage) and scaring cattle and carriage horses, AND running people over, that the concepts of mandatory licensing, registration, and insurance came to be.

"Boating while impaired" only came about to be criminal because of all the drunk boaters doing damage. As the zombies keep replicating and voting, there will sadly be more laws and fewer freedoms, in order to accommodate them.
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Old 14-12-2010, 14:55   #99
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1. If you get in a wreck, most insurance companies will raise your personal rates - not the entire group's.
Well DUH!!! Because now that you've had a wreck, you are no longer in the group of people with a good driving record. You move to a different group, and now you get the same rates as the people in THAT group.

Is that really so hard to figure out?

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Every 18 year old girl covered by my insurance company is not paying $1000 per month for health insurance
Of course not. And no one ever even came close to implying that they were.

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2. You are assuming that everyone has the same funding as you.
I'm not assuming anything at all. You said that insurance companies calculate how much you are going to cost them, and then charge you enough to cover that plus a profit. You went on to say that if you just put that money in an account you will have it when you need it. I pointed out that this is NOT the way insurance companies work, and that anyone who followed your advice would NOT have enough money to cover a serious disaster.

I would have been happy to see it drop at that point, but when you accused me of not knowing what I was talking about, I felt compelled to reply. Especially since it is very clearly YOU who does not understand how the insurance business works--once again, it is all about shared risk.

If you would like to go on arguing, I suppose I am willing. My advice to you at this point, however, would be to let it drop.
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Old 14-12-2010, 16:54   #100
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so (some of) you guys will be happy to hear that we have found full coverage that we qualify for, and i think i'm going to go that route. it's expensive, and we're required to have a third crewmember, but only for the pacific crossing and we were planning to have a third anyhow.

so one more question:

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Sometimes checking into Mexico I've been asked for the Mexico Liability Policy everyone must carry.
is there a decent chance that i'll be asked for local liability insurance, even if my full coverage policy includes liability? just trying to fully understand what costs i'm signing up for...

also, for the record:

people have been getting pretty up in arms about the need to carry at least liability insurance. there may be others on this thread who have, but i personally haven't been considering not having liability. kinda seems like a moot point anyhow since it's required by marinas - i'm all for spending as much time on the hook as possible, but can't imagine NEVER pulling into a marina for the entirety of the trip.
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:03   #101
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Shoot... I still remember flag's.....

PRB remember this?
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:25   #102
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is there a decent chance that i'll be asked for local liability insurance, even if my full coverage policy includes liability? just trying to fully understand what costs i'm signing up for...
Glad to hear you have been able to get coverage that keeps you in compliance with your financial commitment to the bank.

You will most likely only be required to have "local" liability in Mexico. Check with your agent.
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:40   #103
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PRB remember this?
Are you refering to the river boats in Vietnam or the book... had a friend transfer out of the Royal Navy in 67 and I think it was into those...
What some folks do for a Green Card.. hav'nt a clue if he survived tho'... "awa' n leak yum Geordie freak..."

For those who don't understand English thats.. Pi** of Geordie..
A geordie is someone from the area round Guisboruogh/Middlesborough in the NE of England
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:57   #104
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Are you refering to the river boats in Vietnam or the book... had a friend transfer out of the Royal Navy in 67 and I think it was into those...
What some folks do for a Green Card.. hav'nt a clue if he survived tho'... "awa' n leak yum Geordie freak..."

For those who don't understand English thats.. Pi** of Geordie..
A geordie is someone from the area round Guisboruogh/Middlesborough in the NE of England
Hint....it's a flag signal.
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:59   #105
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Didn't the Geordies hang a monkey they thought was a German spy?
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