Cruising on $5,000 / Month

[CatInHand]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

To the poster who has been blacklisted from his career. This happened to my brother his partner did something wrong in the financial world. It turned sour, licenses were lost. For 3 years now my brother has been trying to get back into this world. He has mad math skills and I have counselled him to switch to analysis, data mining or some other field where those skills can be utilized. "No way! I can't let the bastards win." Hey the bastards always win. You just need to learn how to play a different game.

I went the other way: Screw the job, sell the house and go sailing.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Budget Cruisers don't goto Cruising Paid Forums/Siminars...so you had a self-selecting population sample.

There is also two Cruising Worlds out there folks, which come to think of it, there are also "two worlds" back on land also....so why would Cruising be any different?

Wifey B: Two? More like thousands. Millions.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Your rich have never contributed so little, and taken so much. If there is a class fight going on, it is being waged by the rich against everyone else

Is someone else besides the Mayor of Toronto smoking something?
The "Evil Rich" in the USA pay MORE in Income taxes and have been for a long time. The false narative that the Rich are gaming the system and screwing the poor, may be a nice talking point and a nice way to keep the poor riled up in a Class Envy Game, but it just isn't factual. In Fact, when are the "poor" going too thank the "rich" for towing the wagon while the poor are along for the free ride???

The top 10% of wage earners (incomes above $75K/yr) pay 70% of the US Income Taxes. Once you learn who these evil rich are, it's easer to stop attacking and blaming them becuase they live next door!



The rich pay majority of U.S. income taxes - Mar. 12, 2013

[ArtM]

You're right, there are surely some of the $500/mo crowd who are on depreciating boats and simply not counting the cost. However, I think that investigation would show most of them are on 40 year old cruisers with monthly maintenance requirements. I believe most of them are holding steady value with steady maintenance.

From past discussions, I know that a lot of the budget cruisers in this forum are in fact traveling and doing quite well at it.

I would roughly estimate that a person traveling the world on a sailboat at $500/month easily has a carrying cost of another $1000/mo in addition to that, which is being borne by the general public.

My only complaint is when one of them treats other cruisers contemptuously for doing the very things that makes their lifestyle possible - buying and maintaining brand new yachts (which will eventually be 40 years old), spending thousands to harbor at the same marinas that provide free and low-cost moorings, and patronizing the high-priced art, restaurant, and shopping districts that everyone loves to sail to, though they are not buying there.

My other only complaint, which is not really a complaint but an observation, is when someone takes great pride in their thrifty, low-cost lifestyle and mocks those who cannot "make it work" - perhaps this is merely reaction to my own ex-wife, who frequently tells others that she takes semi-yearly cruises on her part-time Walmart income through hard work, thriftiness, and just plain "wanting it badly enough", entirely forgetting to mention the enormous cash contribution from her ex-husband.

Coincidentally, can you guess the amount of the cash contribution? Yes, that's right, it's exactly the pre-tax equivalent of $5000/mo, and does not include the enourmous health care and cell phone costs I also pay. And, wow does she whine about it.

And I can assure everyone, as a citizen of one of last countries in the world requiring citizens to provide their own health coverage, the cost is quite high, eclipsing that $500/mo figure. A Canadian might be able to "make it work", but an American can only do so by foregoing health coverage (which is now illegal), or by qualifying for aid - aid that they probably had to lie to get, as they are probably telling their "resident" state that they are still "physically present", and therefore eligible for the aid they are receiving.

A caricature? I don't think so. I have seen it again and again. "Making it work" is nothing more than a combination of the turning a blind eye, feigned ignorance, and carefully constructed self-delusion.

Health insurance for two adults, $5000 deductible, and up to $11,000 in out of pocket expenses is way over $500/mo by itself.

So to be clear, I am not saying it is impossible to do - only that it is impossible to do if one chooses to maintain a reasonable degree of healthcare coverage, and/or if one chooses to take into account the "hidden costs" of the lifestyle that are borne by others.

And further, I am saying let's be appreciative of those among us who have chosen to carry their own costs, both hidden and apparent, so that all may enjoy the benefits equally, including those among us who, for whatever reason, cannot or choose not to do so.

[BandB]

Of course the high earners pay more taxes than the low earners. That is one of those mathematical expressions that proves absolutely nothing, but just states the obvious. It doesn't mean the poor should thank the rich. Shouldn't insult them either. Should just all get along.

Sure a lot of angry, jaded words being expressed. Characterizations of groups of people.

As to being "appreciative of those among us who have chosen to carry their own costs, both hidden and apparent, so that all may enjoy the benefits equally, including those among us who, for whatever reason, cannot or choose not to do so." Appreciative of pompous arrogant persons who feel they are better than others simply because they make more? No thanks. We pay more than our share but don't ask for anyone to be appreciative of what we pay. As to "chosen to carry their own costs", no. Haven't chosen. Doubt that you've just sent in donations to the government. You've paid taxes as required by law. That's not charity or choosing.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Health insurance for two adults, $5000 deductible, and up to $11,000 in out of pocket expenses is way over $500/mo by itself.

So to be clear, I am not saying it is impossible to do - only that it is impossible to do if one chooses to maintain a reasonable degree of healthcare coverage, and/or if one chooses to take into account the "hidden costs" of the lifestyle that are borne by others.

And further, I am saying let's be appreciative of those among us who have chosen to carry their own costs, both hidden and apparent, so that all may enjoy the benefits equally, including those among us who, for whatever reason, cannot or choose not to do so.

Nope, I don't have health care, nor have I needed it. Can't have health care at $500/month, That is true. Haven't been to a doctor in seven years. Even then it was a one time thingy. Delusional, that is so me.

Still trying to find the hidden costs. Wow, a $1000 a month. Who knew I was so high maintenance. My fee's to marina's (twice a month) pays for water, trash, etc. My food costs include road taxes paid by the trucking companies that bring the food to market..

Just so you know I do care. Thank you each and every one of you for carrying all those hidden costs. Big thanks to Rich for paying taxes, Well thanks to everyone that pays taxes. I use to pay taxes on 90-100K/year at the single rate no less, so I feel your pain. Then I found out how little I needed to live.

Lord knows I'm not a pillar of the community. I'm just trying to live and do a bit O sailing No its not for everyone and that is totally fine too. I for one am quite happy most of you are not as crazy as me.

Be good and have fun.

[Ex-Calif]

In Singapore when the expats get to "bitching" someone will invariably say, "If you don't like it here, Changi Airport is just up the road."

These conversations are best held in the bar or at least in person. Written word can not convey the dialog.

- The US is a messy place and there is room for everyone. If everyone earned 5 figures who would work in McDonald's? Who pays the most, who supports whom - Immigrants taking jobs, "natives, won't take jobs - All BS and all done to death. No one here is gonna change their mind or personality - As my kid says, "Haters gonna hate"

- At the end of the day you decide, "I'm staying here. Or I'm leaving." Spend you whole life getting ulcers thinking how poor people are screwing up the country. Or get ulcers thinking about how rich people are screwing you over. What a waste of time!

Every month I get a paycheck from "da man." Every month I have to decide if it was "worth it" and if I want to play another round.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by BandB

Appreciative of pompous arrogant persons who feel they are better than others simply because they make more? No thanks. We pay more than our share but don't ask for anyone to be appreciative of what we pay. As to "chosen to carry their own costs", no. Haven't chosen. Doubt that you've just sent in donations to the government. You've paid taxes as required by law. That's not charity or choosing.

Allow me to lay out the next act of this drama. Spoiler Alert!

The pompous arrogant persons who decided that all beaches should remain public, and that all private shorefront building must maintain public access, and that medical facilities must be open to all persons, regardless of their ability or willingness to pay, and that all marinas should provide affordable mooring for migrant occupants, will gradually change their ideas of what it means to "serve the public good".

Likely, new decisions will carve out premium harbor spaces for private clubs, abolish public access rules on selected lands, and will very quietly and legally start creating parks and gardens on the rooftops of private buildings, interconnected by elevated skywalks rather than on the ground where anyone can access them from any public sidewalk.

Most hospitals and clinics will become private healthcare facilities,offering their own "in-house" health plans that conform (barely) to federal requirements.

Laws requiring that all restaurants provide restrooms for their patrons will be replaced by laws that provide that no restaurants will provide restrooms of any kind, for patrons or otherwise. Downtown Honolulu seems to have been selected as a model city for this new approach to public spaces management.

Of course, public buildings will still be required to be open to the public and provide public restroom facilities. However, some such public facilities in the future will require that a person pass through a metal detector under the watchful eye of 6 security guards, and will forbid any bags or luggage to be taken into said building for "security reasons". This is how I accessed the restrooms in the District Court building in Downtown Honolulu when the private bathroom I normally use was out of order (in my own office!).
Anyone who is interested in seeing the future, please - sail on over to Waikiki and get a first hand look at it. I'll be happy to host you at the local Yacht club, which is the only way you will get a mooring within 10 miles, though the large harbors be choked with boats that never move.

Here, you'll see the future of fair public housing. We have hundreds of people who believe that just because a person MAY set up a 3 man tent on a public sidewalk and live in it, that said person SHOULD set up a 3 man tent on a public sidewalk and live in it.

Here, we have people who know their rights better than a lot of attorneys, yet don't have so much as a complete cigarette to their name. What they do have is a large professionally groomed public park in which to relax and enjoy the sun and air, clean, safe bathrooms professionally cleaned and maintained in which to relieve themselves and take an occasional nap, and rows of neatly trimmed hedges on which to dry their clothing after washing them in the beach showers (there is quite a line for that beach shower on laundry day).

One area of town has radial spokes of junk-shanties, spreading outward from the local shelter like a wheel. The "public" sidewalks there are unusable except in the morning, when the occupants are standing in line for the "free" meal they get there every day, but shortly after take back to enjoy on their front "porch", causing all passersby to have to walk in the street or parking lots to get past.

Apparantly, there seems to be a law that anyone is allowed to be at a public bus station - I suppose that you cannot tell someone that they cannot wait for a bus, even if they have been waiting all day long. Here, you will see the future of bus stop design - new styles of seating the likes of which you've never seen. You'll be amazed at the innovation happening here in Hawaii where even the very poorest people are welcome at any public facility!

I wonder what will be next? Perhaps public marinas and mooring fields that have only a 4.5' draft -- what kinds of boats can enter a field like that? Certainly such a development would be solely for the benefit of the delicate reef formations that are so threatened in this rare bastion of natural beauty.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Nope, I don't have health care, nor have I needed it. Can't have health care at $500/month, That is true. Haven't been to a doctor in seven years. Even then it was a one time thingy. Delusional, that is so me.

Still trying to find the hidden costs. Wow, a $1000 a month. Who knew I was so high maintenance. My fee's to marina's (twice a month) pays for water, trash, etc. My food costs include road taxes paid by the trucking companies that bring the food to market..

Just so you know I do care. Thank you each and every one of you for carrying all those hidden costs. Big thanks to Rich for paying taxes, Well thanks to everyone that pays taxes. I use to pay taxes on 90-100K/year at the single rate no less, so I feel your pain. Then I found out how little I needed to live.

Lord knows I'm not a pillar of the community. I'm just trying to live and do a bit O sailing No its not for everyone and that is totally fine too. I for one am quite happy most of you are not as crazy as me.

Be good and have fun.

I have no criticism or concern for you SailorChic, I really appreciate your realistic outlook on life. My only concern is that, if you are American, you are now outside the law with respect to health care, and I thank you for your appreciation for the lifestyle and those who help make it possible.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I have no criticism or concern for you SailorChic, I really appreciate your realistic outlook on life. My only concern is that, if you are American, you are now outside the law with respect to health care, and I thank you for your appreciation for the lifestyle and those who help make it possible.

Actually the ACA exempts those that make less then $9000/year from the requirements, that is there is no fine for the poor if you don't have insurance. I checked a year ago. So I'm still legal as far as that goes. But thanks for your concern.

Funny they did not publish that little tidbit.

[cwjohm]

OK, so if I understand correctly the costs per month do not factor in depreciation. That makes more sense.

The insight into the American system is interesting. In Australia it seems the trend is to cash in super (retirement benefits) and buy a boat. Over time the boat depreciates and they fall back on the Government pension with little in the way of investable assets.

This does beg the question though. At some point it is likely that anybody will not be physically capable of living on or sailing a boat, and they will have to dispose of it and make other arrangements. What will be the outcome then for both the individual and the economy as a whole.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

OK, so if I understand correctly the costs per month do not factor in depreciation. That makes more sense.

The insight into the American system is interesting. In Australia it seems the trend is to cash in super (retirement benefits) and buy a boat. Over time the boat depreciates and they fall back on the Government pension with little in the way of investable assets.

This does beg the question though. At some point it is likely that anybody will not be physically capable of living on or sailing a boat, and they will have to dispose of it and make other arrangements. What will be the outcome then for both the individual and the economy as a whole.

Well now we truly are departing from topic, but in fact the US is reorganizing it's internal systems to align with the European, Canadian, and even Oceania's socialist systems. I believe this is necessary move to maintain an alliance against the growing Asian supernation.

At that time, the boat will be sold or abandoned or given away, and the person will enter the "standard" public retirement and healthcare system, unless they have family who will take them in. That part of the US system (post-retirement) is the same as everyone else's.

[salticrak]

It seems to me the sense of entitlement cuts both ways...

[cwjohm]

Sorry, but I did not mean to take it off topic.

My point was very much related to the cruising budget and this thread.

Contrary to your stated "socialisation" point most economies are deflating retirement benefits over time. This is a brutal reality.

My point was how can you state a cruising budget of X without consideration of the day when you can no longer cruise, or no longer wish to cruise or live on a boat and making some financial consideration for such. This must consider depreciation and other factors. This is not only fiscally reckless but also socially irresponsible it seems to me.

However, I will take it as read that the cruising budget as it is referred to here makes no reference to these factors and simply refers to general expenses.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Allow me to lay out the next act of this drama. Spoiler Alert!

The pompous arrogant persons who decided that all beaches should remain public, and that all private shorefront building must maintain public access, and that medical facilities must be open to all persons, regardless of their ability or willingness to pay, and that all marinas should provide affordable mooring for migrant occupants, will gradually change their ideas of what it means to "serve the public good".

Likely, new decisions will carve out premium harbor spaces for private clubs, abolish public access rules on selected lands, and will very quietly and legally start creating parks and gardens on the rooftops of private buildings, interconnected by elevated skywalks rather than on the ground where anyone can access them from any public sidewalk.

Most hospitals and clinics will become private healthcare facilities,offering their own "in-house" health plans that conform (barely) to federal requirements.

Laws requiring that all restaurants provide restrooms for their patrons will be replaced by laws that provide that no restaurants will provide restrooms of any kind, for patrons or otherwise. Downtown Honolulu seems to have been selected as a model city for this new approach to public spaces management.

Of course, public buildings will still be required to be open to the public and provide public restroom facilities. However, some such public facilities in the future will require that a person pass through a metal detector under the watchful eye of 6 security guards, and will forbid any bags or luggage to be taken into said building for "security reasons". This is how I accessed the restrooms in the District Court building in Downtown Honolulu when the private bathroom I normally use was out of order (in my own office!).
Anyone who is interested in seeing the future, please - sail on over to Waikiki and get a first hand look at it. I'll be happy to host you at the local Yacht club, which is the only way you will get a mooring within 10 miles, though the large harbors be choked with boats that never move.

Here, you'll see the future of fair public housing. We have hundreds of people who believe that just because a person MAY set up a 3 man tent on a public sidewalk and live in it, that said person SHOULD set up a 3 man tent on a public sidewalk and live in it.

Here, we have people who know their rights better than a lot of attorneys, yet don't have so much as a complete cigarette to their name. What they do have is a large professionally groomed public park in which to relax and enjoy the sun and air, clean, safe bathrooms professionally cleaned and maintained in which to relieve themselves and take an occasional nap, and rows of neatly trimmed hedges on which to dry their clothing after washing them in the beach showers (there is quite a line for that beach shower on laundry day).

One area of town has radial spokes of junk-shanties, spreading outward from the local shelter like a wheel. The "public" sidewalks there are unusable except in the morning, when the occupants are standing in line for the "free" meal they get there every day, but shortly after take back to enjoy on their front "porch", causing all passersby to have to walk in the street or parking lots to get past.

Apparantly, there seems to be a law that anyone is allowed to be at a public bus station - I suppose that you cannot tell someone that they cannot wait for a bus, even if they have been waiting all day long. Here, you will see the future of bus stop design - new styles of seating the likes of which you've never seen. You'll be amazed at the innovation happening here in Hawaii where even the very poorest people are welcome at any public facility!

I wonder what will be next? Perhaps public marinas and mooring fields that have only a 4.5' draft -- what kinds of boats can enter a field like that? Certainly such a development would be solely for the benefit of the delicate reef formations that are so threatened in this rare bastion of natural beauty.

Wifey B: And what the h... does this pile of crap have to do with the topic? Seriously, do you just think the purpose of the thread is to allow you to spew your venom at every person and every group you hate? And my hubby's words for you were much too kind. Just the words I'd like to use aren't allowed here. I mean really. Such hatred. Such poisonous diatribes at everyone you have somehow decided is inferior to you. I pity you. It must be painful to carry all the toxicity internally that you are inflamed with. Instead of demeaning those who are less fortunate, why don't you try helping some of them. I don't mean through taxes. I don't mean through charities. I mean first hand. Actually get to know some of them, maybe grasp a bit how they got to where they are, offer a helping hand out of kindness.

I detest the use of a cruising forum and a thread on budgeting for cruising to spout off some anti-social political attitude of superiority and condescension. And while probably the wise move on my part would be to totally ignore you, I can't do that. It is offensive. Inappropriate on this forum, on this thread. I know there are people with such views. But I sure didn't come here to be subjected to them. And letting them go unchallenged just perpetuates allowing them to creep as ugliness into some potential acceptability all somehow rationalized I'm sure by some rights you feel entitled to. I honestly do feel for you and whatever has caused you to feel this way. But I also am not going to condone your words through silence. If trolling for drama with spoiler alerts for your hypotheses on the deterioration of I guess what was your perfect lily clean world is your thing, well, in case you haven't noticed, it p......es me off.