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Old 30-06-2014, 18:41   #736
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

Oh! And if you think you have it bad - Look around. There is always someone that has it worse off than you. Unless you are "The Last Guy" - Sorry for the long post but I just love this bit...

If you don't wanna read - You can hear it from Arlo himself - The 60s were cool!



During these hard days and hard weeks, everybody always
has it bad once in a while. You know, you have a bad time of
it, and you always have a friend who says "Hey man, you
ain't got it that bad. Look at that guy." And you at that
guy, and he's got it worse than you. And it makes you feel
better that there's somebody that's got it worse than you.

But think of the last guy. For one minute, think of the last
guy. Nobody's got it worse than that guy. Nobody in the
whole world. That guy...he's so alone in the world that he
doesn't even have a street to lay in for a truck to run him over.
He's out there with nothin'. Nothin's happenin' for that cat.

And all that he has to do to create a little excitement in his
own life is to bum a dime from somewhere, call up the FBI.
Say "FBl?", they say "Yes", say "I think Uncle Ho and Chair-
man Mao and their friends are comin' over for dinner" (click)
Hang up the phone.

And within two minutes, and not two minutes from when he
hangs up the phone, but two minutes from when he first put
the dime in, they got 30,000 feet of tape rollin'; files on tape;
pictures, movies, dramas, actions on tape. But then they send
out a half a million people all over the entire world, the globe,
they find out all they can about this guy.

'Cause there's a number of questions involved in the guy. I
mean, if he was the last guy in the world, how'd he get a dime
to call the FBI? There are plenty of people that aren't the last
guys that can't get dimes. He comes along and he gets a dime.

I mean, if he had to bum a dime to call the FBI, how was he
gonna serve dinner for all of those people? How could the
last guy make dinner for all those people. And if he could
make dinner, and was gonna make dinner, then why did he
call the FBI?

They find out all of those questions within two minutes. And
that's a great thing about America. I mean, this is the only
country in the world...l mean, well, it's not the only country
in the world that could find stuff out in two minutes, but it's
the only country in the world that would take two minutes
for that guy.

Other countries would say "Hey, he's the last guy...screw
him", you know? But in America, there is no discrimination,
and there is no hypocrisy,'cause they'll get anybody. And that's
a wonderful thing about America.

And that's why tonight I'd like to dedicate it to every FBI
man in the audience. I know you can't say nothin', you know,
you can't get up and say "Hi!" cause then everybody knows
that you're an FBI man and that's a drag for you and your
friends.

They're not really your friends, are they? I mean, so you can't
get up and say nothin' 'cause other wise, you gotta get sent
back to the factory and that's a drag for you and it's an
expense for the government, and that's a drag for you.

We're gonna sing you this Christmas carol. It's for all you
bastards out there in the audience tonight. It's called "The
Pause of Mr. Claus".
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Old 30-06-2014, 18:48   #737
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

Well I'm still pretty much of the opinion that you will spend about the same cruising as land living adjusting for dirt fixed costs and adding boat maintenance and expenses.

For me that appears to be $3k/mo. So the $5k/mo means staying in the marina more and having shore power to run the AC. And more sight seeing choices.
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Old 30-06-2014, 19:10   #738
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pirate Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
When I think of the $500/month cruiser, I think of these scenarios:

1) Someone who is on welfare, social security retirement or other fixed income, and who is truly NOT cruising on $500/mo because their income is tax free and supplemented by various other forms of welfare and government benefits such as Medicaid.
These people have little or no insurance on their vessels. They are likely to have secondary sources of funds that they don't talk about. They may be receiving non-cash gifts from others, or else they simply live a life of poverty.
There is nothing wrong with a life of poverty, but there is something wrong with misrepresenting who and what you really are.

2) Someone who actually lives on this small amount of money, independently. Their boats receive minimal maintenance. Their clothing is ancient and probably ragged. They have no insurance of any kind. Though they may be kind, decent, and honest people, the fact is that they live on the edge of existence. Whether now or in the future, they will eventually become a public burden unless they change their lifestyle.
These people, though, take misplaced pride in barely pulling their own weight. They find virtue in contributing the very smallest amount that society will permit. They believe that they ask nothing and give nothing, which is fine, except that, eventually, someday, they will be required to take more than they can give, and they will not have that history of having given in the past to account for it.

3) Someone who has established a secure lifestyle as a result of their own past accomplishments. This person has financial and lifestyle assets on which he can draw in times of need. He maintains a reserve. He has adequate insurance, though it is not counted in his $500/month profile. This person has cash or physical assets on the ready, and is also prepared to return to work whenever the need should arise and if he is able to do so.

On the opposite end is the 5000+/month cruiser.

This person has substantial assets, whether created by himself or others.

Unless a trust-fund baby, this person has created and served others in his life, and that creation and service is now serving him.

Along the way, he had to fight progressive taxation, increasing burdens of care for his other family members who felt they deserved to be supported by him by mere virtue of association, lawsuits, competition, jealousy, back-biting, and disrespect from those for whom he provided housing, employment, and security.

Along the way, he himself was personally at risk for the failure of all his own ventures - a prospect made even more burdensome by the distasteful possibility that any failure might reduce his ability to provide for the ungrateful, support the unwilling, and to pay the employees who bore no responsibility or concern for the success or failure of the business at all.

Now, here on the cruiser's forum, he is accused of being an elite egalitarian - someone who has never known financial difficulty, is disconnected from reality, and has no concern for the plight of the poor or disadvantaged who, due to some terrible calamity not of their own choosing, are no longer able to go back to the job they used to do, and instead choose to return to no occupation at all - except, apparently, maintenance and operation of a sailing vessel, which is somehow within their physical capabilities so long as there is no associated compensation in doing it.

$5000/ month? In today's dollars? That is barely covering the nut. It's just keeping you in the green. It's barely enough to ensure that you can support yourself today, and that you will not easily fall to public support any time soon. There is no way that $5000 is coming to you without taxation. Even in your retirement, you are maintaining public responsibility.

The poor have money problems? What problem? They have no money - they merely choose what bills will not be paid - a process that requires nothing more than understanding who will listen to a sob story, or who they can sponge off next. A brother or sister who will put you up in their home? Skip the rent payment till next month! Almost ready to qualify for public medical care and food stamps? No need to pay the insurance bill, or the hospital!

I've lived both ways, and believe me the financial "problems" of the poor are nothing compared to the problems of the so-called "well heeled".
Ooooohhhhh... we are getting a tad touchy..
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Old 30-06-2014, 19:15   #739
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
When I think of the $500/month cruiser, I think of these scenarios:

1) Someone who is on welfare, social security retirement or other fixed income, and who is truly NOT cruising on $500/mo because their income is tax free and supplemented by various other forms of welfare and government benefits such as Medicaid.
These people have little or no insurance on their vessels. They are likely to have secondary sources of funds that they don't talk about. They may be receiving non-cash gifts from others, or else they simply live a life of poverty.
There is nothing wrong with a life of poverty, but there is something wrong with misrepresenting who and what you really are.

2) Someone who actually lives on this small amount of money, independently. Their boats receive minimal maintenance. Their clothing is ancient and probably ragged. They have no insurance of any kind. Though they may be kind, decent, and honest people, the fact is that they live on the edge of existence. Whether now or in the future, they will eventually become a public burden unless they change their lifestyle.
These people, though, take misplaced pride in barely pulling their own weight. They find virtue in contributing the very smallest amount that society will permit. They believe that they ask nothing and give nothing, which is fine, except that, eventually, someday, they will be required to take more than they can give, and they will not have that history of having given in the past to account for it.

3) Someone who has established a secure lifestyle as a result of their own past accomplishments. This person has financial and lifestyle assets on which he can draw in times of need. He maintains a reserve. He has adequate insurance, though it is not counted in his $500/month profile. This person has cash or physical assets on the ready, and is also prepared to return to work whenever the need should arise and if he is able to do so.
LOL, Well I never did fit all nice in tidy in any list. You know I do have boat insurance though its only about $33 a month and is included in that $500 a month figure. Food, fuel, Spent $6 today on electrical bits. My 42 year old boat is all I have so I keep up with maintenance. As I'm aboard 24/7 I do a bit o maintenance each week. I cleaned a bit of the hull while swimming today...

You do realize that folks that make less then about $800 a month pay little or nothing in taxes. That's about 12 percent of the population of the US. It's how the US tax laws are set up. So no I don't pay taxes now, though I've paid $30K+ in taxes for many many years, in the past. I got off that marry go round.

Now I have 3.5 years till SS kicks in at 62, where I will receive $1200 a month after taxes, medi, etc. While most folks will say you can't live on SS, I will bask in the largeness of having 2.5 times of what I've lived on for the last 4 years. Pretty sweet.

Mind you, I've never shopped for Gucci or Prada. Hard to find at goodwill now a days. Seems a bit over priced too. The truly rich, don't wear Rolex's BTW as anyone can buy that. Ask Tom Perkins.

Yes I did chose this lifestyle over working 50-60 hours a week and having the boss complain that I was not taking work home too. HA, I was laid off for not working enough, delightful.

After 32 years of full time employment, a bad marriage that I walked away from with nothing, I made the choice to live for myself. My boat was provided from my dad's modest estate. Luckily I replaced/upgraded all systems prior to the great recession. It's a simple boat for a simple soul.

I do have a 1979 motorcycle (Goldwing with original paint) and a truly lovely 1978 road bicycle. The bicycle was hand made in Italy, probably the nicest thing I own. Not worth that much now, but still very sweet. What more would this girl want?

Today, I sailed, well motored as the wind was on the nose, 10 miles, went swimming and annoyed folks on CF. Tonight I'll watch the sun set with my sun worshiping cat. Tomorrow, I'll do some html coding, and write a bit, plus more swimming. Not a bad life and far better then getting up at 5:30 to drive an hour to work.

You know I don't have any bills either, well other then an insurance payment now and then. Don't even have a bank account. I use gift cards to pay insurance, etc. Cheaper then a bank for the poor non-banked
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Old 30-06-2014, 19:30   #740
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

[QUOTE=Ex-Calif;1575333]
If you don't wanna read - You can hear it from Arlo himself - The 60s were cool!

Love Arlo,

Saw him a few months back. Still a character.
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Old 30-06-2014, 19:52   #741
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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You know I don't have any bills either, well other then an insurance payment now and then. Don't even have a bank account. I use gift cards to pay insurance, etc. Cheaper then a bank for the poor non-banked
I think you have a place in that list, or somewhere on the in-between.

I remember a long time back, after buying a few items of clothing at Goodwill, that had become my favorite clothes to wear.

After some consideration, I realized the reason - anything that is still in good condition, good enough to sell after having been used by another person, was a good quality item of clothing!

Brand name or not, that was the first time I realized the value of quality clothing - and I learned it by shopping at Goodwill!

Quality appliances and Italian bicycles are a bit tougher to come by - people don't let go of those easily. It's not as simple as simply growing out of your old clothes!
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Old 30-06-2014, 20:02   #742
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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When I think of the $500/month cruiser, I think of these scenarios:...I've lived both ways, and believe me the financial "problems" of the poor are nothing compared to the problems of the so-called "well heeled".
If you're trying to make some sort of April Fool's joke comment, you've succeeded in content, but missed the date. Gotta say though, you're pretty funny. As for the brand list, seems to me Toyota has had a long list of recalls in recent years. The rest of your long list is out of my experience. I've never been a brand-guy.

Although it somewhat pains me to say it, I think Don (aka Sailorboy) is pretty much on target. One's spending and general lifestyle on land is likely to be carried to any life at sea. If you're a $5000/month person on land there's no reason to expect this will change on the water. So too with the $500/month crowd. As long as you can make it work, it's all good .
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Old 30-06-2014, 20:06   #743
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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Although it somewhat pains me to say it, I think Don (aka Sailorboy) is pretty much on target. One's spending and general lifestyle on land is likely to be carried to any life at sea. If you're a $5000/month person on land there's no reason to expect this will change on the water. So too with the $500/month crowd. As long as you can make it work, it's all good .
I guess one of my main points is that much the $500/month crowd is really not "making it work", but rather that it is the $5000/month crowd that is really making it work for them.
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Old 30-06-2014, 20:13   #744
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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I guess one of my main points is that much the $500/month crowd is really not "making it work", but rather that it is the $5000/month crowd that is really making it work for them.
The vast majority of the world's population lives on far less than $500/month. I'm personally aware of a number of people here, and on Sailnet who are making it work. I'll let you know if I can make it work, b/c we're heading off with this kind of budget.

My observations of these kinds of discussions is that those in the $5000/month club can't conceive of how it is even possible to live on a tenth of their budget, and those in the $500/month group can't fathom how anyone could ever spend so much money in a month. Somewhere in-between is likely the reality for most people.
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Old 30-06-2014, 20:44   #745
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

We just don't have big enough imaginations.

I was talking to a guy over the weekend. He has a good friend crewing for a dot-com guy.

187 foot yacht. $6 million a year in running costs. On the boat 3 months a year (high usage now because this is his "new" toy")

He had them move the boat to Singapore for a party recently - catered in the wine, food, party favors everything!

Maybe we need to start a "Cruising on $2 Million a Month" thread to discuss the hardships they face.

BTW - The guy also has a 737 BizJet to deliver him to the boat.

One can "argue" the $5k sailors are making it possible for the $500 sailors. We are looking at the wrong enemy - All of us are making it possible for the $2 million "sailors."

The rich have always encouraged division of the classes, and we keep falling for it...
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Old 30-06-2014, 20:49   #746
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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The vast majority of the world's population lives on far less than $500/month. I'm personally aware of a number of people here, and on Sailnet who are making it work. I'll let you know if I can make it work, b/c we're heading off with this kind of budget.

My observations of these kinds of discussions is that those in the $5000/month club can't conceive of how it is even possible to live on a tenth of their budget, and those in the $500/month group can't fathom how anyone could ever spend so much money in a month. Somewhere in-between is likely the reality for most people.
I've done extensive study on the topic. What I've found is that most people are entirely unaware of their actual impact on society. They tend to forget the value of things like sidewalks, streetlights, fire services, weed control, park maintenance, and the many other services that they use every day, though don't contribute to.

I don't mean to be critical of that crowd at all, but do get annoyed with class-envy that sometimes comes from that group.

I have been on both sides and traveled the full gamit in between. I'm very aware. I remember receiving a letter from my University in 1988 asking me to explain how it was possible for me to live on 10,000 per year, as I had claimed in my FAF application. I remember finding it amusing, as I found it quite easy and was more than happy to give an extensive response to this seemingly ridiculous query.

The budget sailing group in THIS part of the world is much like their land-based budget travelers. They benefit from the generious provisions of society at large, taking advantage of low-priced moorings (campgrounds), publicly maintained channels and locks (freeways and roads), and we can only hope that they will be respectful of other people's rights to also enjoy those facilities without creating visual, sound, or other kinds of pollution. In Florida, as an example, the result has been hundreds of abandoned boats in the bay of Miami's most expensive homes and straight-up vagabonds living for free in the backwaters of the Florida keys right in the backyards of the people who have worked and saved their entire lives for an opportunity to buy and enjoy a home there. Nobody knows who these people are, where they came from, how long they will stay, or who might take their place if they do leave. It does not make for safe or pleasant communities.

In other parts of the world, $500 is a different amount of money... for now... it's not permanently sustainable, but at least for a while it will be possible to take advantage of economic variations, but you should at least do so with an appreciation that you are benefiting from that region's public facilities without contributing to their operation.

I just ask that everyone be respectful and appreciative toward the "well heeled" people who paid their taxes, earn and spend at least $5000/month so that you can enjoy your free moorings, harbor lifestyles, and unspoiled views from the coastline.

If you're part of the (1) group, maybe you will also offer a daily thanks to the wealthy business owners, landlords, and other caretakers of the communities that you choose to visit for the services they provide to you, and for the healthcare you receive at their expense so that you may continue to enjoy your lifestyle.
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Old 30-06-2014, 21:10   #747
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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If you're part of the (1) group, maybe you will also offer a daily thanks to the wealthy business owners, landlords, and other caretakers of the communities that you choose to visit for the services they provide to you, and for the healthcare you receive at their expense so that you may continue to enjoy your lifestyle.
Wow, are you for real, or just tolling? You are a presenting a caricature of the most obscene form of class superiority I've ever seen here. I can't take you seriously. Or should I simply grovel, and ask: "Which boot would you like me to lick now masser?"

Seriously ... the well-heeled in your country (I am Canadian, just to be clear) have never had it so good. Your rich have never contributed so little, and taken so much. If there is a class fight going on, it is being waged by the rich against everyone else.

I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have (I've done enough damage, and I apologize). If you'd like to carry on, I'm happy to do so in PM, or in another thread.
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Old 30-06-2014, 21:34   #748
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

Interesting philosopy thread.

However, is this a parallel reality we are talking here.

Last cruising forum I went to had 20 participant couples

Average boat value $400K. Average depreciation per year of $40K.

Average boat repair and registration costs not allowing for marina fees - $10K

This comes to over $4K pm before you eat, cloth, insure, marinas, travel, dining whatever.

The costs on my boat (value $900K) including depreciation, registration, insurance and marina fees runs around $120K per annum. I am not particularly unusual and am surrounded by many others including liveaboards with similar costs.

Now I understand that most sailors set aside money for a boat and do not care if it depreciates as they will probably leave it to their kids to dispose of when they die, but at the end of the day they (or their kids) will suffer this real cost. Similarly, if you actually sail, you will actually break things, and your boat will actually have to be registered, and you will have to insure at least for the possibility of harming someone else (public liability).

Are we really talking here of someone who buys a 40 year old yacht (no depreciation), who never sails (no maintenance) and simply lives on a boat in lieu of a house.
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Old 30-06-2014, 21:43   #749
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

Wifey B: You guys just lose it too often on this thread. I mean for real why do you have to put down others. It doesn't build you up, just lowers you too? Why group people and make broad insinuations. Why act like one group of people owe the others for whatever they have? If any of you think you're better than others because you live on less or you make more then I find that deplorable. I don't claim to be better than others. Luckier, yes. More fortunate, yes. Hopefully we all do our part to make the world a better place. That can be done a bazillion ways. Some may donate millions to charity. Some may just do it with a kind word when another really needs it. Impact on society? Who the h... is society? I don't give a d... about society, I care about people. Individuals. I don't set out to benefit that thing called society. I do try to help other people when and if I can. I don't care about causes. I care about individuals.

Sorry, guys, but I just hate to see threads like this become some class competition or this group is better than this one or these people should get on their knees and thank these. Yes, I do have a problem when those who are poor or frugal put down those who make more and spend more. But I have the same problem the other way around. I have a problem with what one calls "class envy" but I have a problem with "class put down" too. Yeah I may pay more in taxes and for infrastructure and other things than those who earn less. I don't put them down. I am just thankful I'm able to.

I don't like classifying, stereotyping, prejudices of any sort unless it's prejudice based on real character issues like honestly and hurting others and how one treats their family and friends and maybe more how one treats their enemies. I went from being a 16 year old runaway to being pretty well off and I met good people and bad people all the way along the trip. I love people. I respect people. I consider myself a good person but no better than so many others I've met along the way.

Now could we please get back to boating and off this insulting crap. As to those living on $500/month, more power to you. Guess I did one time but not sure how. To those who live on $5000/month, fine for you. As to what I live on, no comment as it's really not anyone's business, but I make no apologies for it and I don't expect anyone else to apologize for or have to defend their lifestyle.
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Old 30-06-2014, 21:53   #750
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Re: Cruising on $5,000 / Month

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Interesting philosopy thread.
However, is this a parallel reality we are talking here.
Last cruising forum I went to had 20 participant couples .
Budget Cruisers don't goto Cruising Paid Forums/Siminars...so you had a self-selecting population sample.

There is also two Cruising Worlds out there folks, which come to think of it, there are also "two worlds" back on land also....so why would Cruising be any different?
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