Charging for delivery

[GILow]

Hi all,

I’m considering the very faint possibility of offering to help a friend to deliver their boat at some stage in the next year.

I have not said anything to them yet, and they may not accept my offer if I were to do so. But they will need a skipper as they can not yet sail the boat and they cannot afford a real skipper unless their circumstances change.

The delivery would take around 3 to 4 weeks and would involve sailing an old but fundamentally seaworthy 30 year old yacht around 1500 miles of Australian coast. I am confident in my ability to handle the boat, solo if required.

But my dilemma is that I’d have to ask for payment as I’d be giving up casual employment opportunities in the process.

Ignoring the rate of pay, how much of a Pandora’s Box would I be opening if I were to do this?

I have a feeling it is too risky.

Matt

[Wotname]

I think it depends on:

The state of friendship that already exists between you i.e. old mates, new mates, distant mate, mate of a mate, cobber etc.

Whether your mate thinks you are assisting him or that he is assisting you. The first you can't charge him but he might pay expenses, the second you can charge as you see fit and he may or may not engage you...

[El Pinguino]

Bit difficult when it is for a friend.

I've done something similar twice ... Western Port - Eden and Stanley (Tas) - Eden.

Not long ones but when you factor in 'wait on wx' etc they took a bit of time.

I would think you would have to suck on down the time off work and look on it as a holiday..

Apart from that I would look for them to pay all my joining and leaving ( airfares etc ) costs plus all the vittling and a good lash up feed at destination.

[GILow]

Hmmm, getting a feeling I probably shouldn’t offer.

The friendship is new and tenuous.

The need is very, very real.

My ability to do the job as a holiday is non existent.

Not sounding good really when I put it that way.

[GILow]

Of course I was thinking paperwork and legals.

[weavis]

I have 'assisted' in similar situations. However the duration has always been one or two days.

I dont charge. Expenses covered is appreciated.

I much prefer to leave the long trips in the hands of professional delivery crews or solo captains like boatman61 or Atoll.

Why? Liability, insurance and livelihood.

15 days is a long time. It has turned into a job in itself. If something goes wrong, it could be 20 or more days. Friendships have a way of being reshaped in confined quarters and misunderstandings occur when the skipper has to be the skipper....

Thats my experience anyhows.

[GILow]

Yep, sound advice.

I fear it’s going to be a situation where I’d love to help but can’t. I mean I can do it for a fraction of the cost of a pro because of my life situation but the whole legal side has me worried.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GILow

Yep, sound advice.

I fear it’s going to be a situation where I’d love to help but can’t. I mean I can do it for a fraction of the cost of a pro because of my life situation but the whole legal side has me worried.

GILow.. if he wants you to do the trip get him to write you in on his insurance policy.. it should cost him no extra for the additional skipper inclusion, if anything your experience may even bring his premium down as you've stated they are inexperienced.. when he renews he just takes you off..
That should cover any reprecussion's regarding the boat.. as to your compensation.. that is something only you and he can trash out.

[atoll]

30 year old yacht!
better he hires you as the engineer than as the skipper!
i don't know how many times i have had to work on just about every system on an old yacht just to be able to leave port!
then spent considerable time enroute fixing things as they break!
skippering is the easy part!
here is a tip, before you leave disconnect the batteries from shore power and see how long they hold a charge.....4 hours to get below 12v probably means they are shot....

now ,worst case scenario, consider how much you would get paid in your normal job for working 20 hour days,in a high stress environment,outdoors in all weathers,with faulty equipment,and potentially unstable co-workers...........

[StuM]

I've done quite a few deliveries with less experienced owners (most of them 4 - 7 days). I always make the point that I am not the skipper - that responsibility stays with the owner. I call myself the "sailing master" I make recommendations, but the ultimate decisions remain with the owner - it's his investment that is at risk.

I've never charged a fee - they just pay all costs including airfares, provisioning etc. I do it for the pleasure, not the money. As soon as you want money to do it, you run into all the problems inherent in insurance, liability, licencing etc.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

GILow.. if he wants you to do the trip get him to write you in on his insurance policy.. it should cost him no extra for the additional skipper inclusion, if anything your experience may even bring his premium down as you've stated they are inexperienced.. when he renews he just takes you off..
That should cover any reprecussion's regarding the boat.. as to your compensation.. that is something only you and he can trash out.

Boatie, thank you. I hadn’t thought of that. Putting me on the policy would cover most of the legal concerns in my mind.

Pay rates... well, if I did this it would be for a pittance. They can’t afford a skipper which is why I am even considering making the offer. Considering only, I stress.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by atoll

30 year old yacht!
better he hires you as the engineer than as the skipper!
i don't know how many times i have had to work on just about every system on an old yacht just to be able to leave port!
then spent considerable time enroute fixing things as they break!
skippering is the easy part!
here is a tip, before you leave disconnect the batteries from shore power and see how long they hold a charge.....4 hours to get below 12v probably means they are shot....

now ,worst case scenario, consider how much you would get paid in your normal job for working 20 hour days,in a high stress environment,outdoors in all weathers,with faulty equipment,and potentially unstable co-workers...........

Atoll, if only I’d had your wisdom when I bought my boat. It was EXACTLY as you suggested, half a day away from shore power and the 800AH battery bank went totally dead. Then the alternator stopped charging, the solar panels turned out to be producing less than 50 watts and all we could do was hand steer and limp along using the power from the wind gen.

Lesson learned but good to be reminded.

Yes, the boat needs an engineer on board. I think the first delivery attempt failed because the delivery skipper either could not do the work required or felt (possibly correctly) that too much work was required. The boat is better now and I am very comfortable with all of her systems which are of the same era as my boat and in many cases the same make and models.

Rate of pay for the conditions you describe...? Well, let’s just say I’d be doing this out of friendship, not as a means of making a living.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by StuM

I've done quite a few deliveries with less experienced owners (most of them 4 - 7 days). I always make the point that I am not the skipper - that responsibility stays with the owner. I call myself the "sailing master" I make recommendations, but the ultimate decisions remain with the owner - it's his investment that is at risk.

I've never charged a fee - they just pay all costs including airfares, provisioning etc. I do it for the pleasure, not the money. As soon as you want money to do it, you run into all the problems inherent in insurance, liability, licencing etc.

Stu, in an ideal world I wouldn’t need to charge and I’d be able to jump aboard as a particularly handy crew member. But my life situation doesn’t give me that luxury now.

Boatie’s insurance suggestion is one I will follow up, but I also need to figure out if there are any other legal implications from accepting even a token fee.

[Steadman Uhlich]

My view: The best things that should be shared between friends are: adventures, good times, good memories, good food and drink, and most importantly, trust.

When money changes hands, it can change things and people.

In my view, a good friend is more valuable than money. Unfortunately when a friend loses money because of a friend, they often lose that friend too.

That said, I have developed many long-lasting, strong, trusting friendships AFTER being paid to do something for someone with whom I was a stranger before.

I think the key is to clearly define (in writing, even among friends) the expectations both parties have, and for BOTH parties to try to fulfill those expectations, and to be flexible enough to adapt to circumstances that may require some changes in plans.
__________

Good luck on your decision, friendship, and Bon Voyage!

[GILow]

Pretty sound advice!