Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-05-2018, 11:23   #46
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 4,627
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat View Post
Mexico requires liability insurance in all marinas I've been in. Fortunately (or unfortunately) they require a Mexican insurance company to provide it. It's very reasonably priced and you can purchase it online.
I know an increasing number of private marinas demand liability insurance, although I have yet to encounter such a demand for transient dockage. Two of my three previous haul out yards demanded we carry insurance. My current yacht club ďsuggestsĒ that we do.

I also am aware Mexico demands insurance on vehicles issued by Mexican underwriters. But Iíve not heard of the same legal demand with regard to boats. (A quick search comes up saying NO, itís not legally required in Mexico).

My question is: what countries makes it a legal requirement? Itís been mentioned before that some countries do. Ann says Italy and probably France. Iím guessing itís a European thing. And how do they manage this? Is this part of the clearing in process?
__________________

__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 11:42   #47
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Boat: Morgan Out Island 41
Posts: 764
Images: 2
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Which countries JM? I’ve heard this before, but never seen a list. Certainly not required in Canada/USA. Not sure about Mexico, but I don’t think it’s a legal requirement. Never heard of it needed in Caribbean countries.

Is it European countries? Or SA countries?
Actually liability insurance IS effectively required in Canada, not by law (I don't think) but good luck renting a slip for the season without it! Most of the Marinas I've used over the last few years have asked for insurance information when paying for either storage or a summer slip. Transient slips for some reason most marina's care less about.
__________________

pcmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 12:30   #48
Registered User
 
goat's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Everywhere (Sea of Cortez right now)
Boat: PSC Orion 27
Posts: 1,283
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post

I also am aware Mexico demands insurance on vehicles issued by Mexican underwriters. But Iíve not heard of the same legal demand with regard to boats. (A quick search comes up saying NO, itís not legally required in Mexico).
True Mike, it is not a legal requirement, however the marinas require you show proof of liability, even for an overnight stay. Anchorages, you are fine with no insurance.
goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 12:48   #49
Registered User
 
goat's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Everywhere (Sea of Cortez right now)
Boat: PSC Orion 27
Posts: 1,283
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Not that strange. The insurance company likely assumes you are an unacceptable risk while single handing offshore. It may be right or wrong but they aren't obligated to take that risk.

Not really any different from them to refusing to give you car insurance if you are the listed driver but don't have a drivers license. You may be a world class rally driver but if you can't come up with a valid drivers license, they will likely turn you down.

Of course, boats are a little more complicated as you may be able to get local waters insurance while single handing that only covers you within X miles of shore, so the offshore part may have nothing to do with your ability to get insurance in San Fran (or maybe it does...I have no idea since I don't single hand)
I have no problem not being accepted for hull insurance coverage. All your points are valid.

I just find it strange that hull insurance is required in a marina. Liability coverage I understand and also appreciate. If someone backs into my boat in the marina (which has happened) I'm happy that the offender was required to have liability coverage.

goat
goat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 13:51   #50
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 5,294
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
...

I also am aware Mexico demands insurance on vehicles issued by Mexican underwriters. But Iíve not heard of the same legal demand with regard to boats. (A quick search comes up saying NO, itís not legally required in Mexico).
...
We haven't cleared into Mexico for 8 years. When we did proof of liability insurance was required when.we cleared in Ensenada. Latitude 38 Mexico cruisers guide still states
Quote:
All vessels in Mexican waters are required to show proof of valid Liability Insurance.
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 15:07   #51
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 716
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Always amazed that people who ask these sort of questions can remember to breathe let alone lay their hands on a million for a boat
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 15:10   #52
Registered User
 
Simi 60's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 716
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
On insurance here in Australia/Queensland, Bundaberg Port Marina are no longer accepting Northernreef/Edward William insurance, a number of boats that live here have been told to change insurers when renewal time comes. I have been told a number of other marinas up and down the Queensland coast have taken the same stance...

If travelling to Aus/Queensland and you have Northernreef/Edward William insurance i would check ahead to be sure, Northernreef/Edward William are well aware of the situation so you can check with them also...
Finally cottoned on that they are suss?
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 18:33   #53
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 4,627
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
We haven't cleared into Mexico for 8 years. When we did proof of liability insurance was required when.we cleared in Ensenada. Latitude 38 Mexico cruisers guide still states
Paul, can you link to your source. When I do the search I find that it is often a marina (commercial/private) requirement, but not a legal one. But the last thing I want to do is provide false information. I have never sailed to Mexico. I know people who have, and they did not have to produce proof of insurance to clear in.

When I did my brief search I hit these kind of sites: Mexico Boat Insurance - Top 10 FAQ's About Buying Mexico Boat Insurance

Quote:
Do I need Mexico boat insurance and is it required in Mexico? Boat insurance is not required in Mexico. Yet, it is highly recommended...
Here’s another site which sells Mexican insurance: https://www.mexpro.com/mexico/boat/

Quote:
Liability and legal coverage in Mexico has become significantly more important with recent changes in the law. Mexican boat liability is as important as Mexico car liability insurance. In many cases it is required at the marinas, before you are able to launch a boat.
(So by inference, is not legally required, but is probably practically needed).

ADD: I’m still searching for an official Mexican government source. No luck yet...
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 18:49   #54
.....
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,397
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Finally cottoned on that they are suss?
Yep, interestingly though the Chandlery at Bundaberg Port Marina is a Northernreef/Edward William agent
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 20:09   #55
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 12,166
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

So, what are the issues with this insurer? If it is bogus, is there not a regulatory agency that should be involved, either straightening them up or shutting them down?

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Pittwater, NSW fora while.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-05-2018, 20:26   #56
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 5,294
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
So, what are the issues with this insurer? If it is bogus, is there not a regulatory agency that should be involved, either straightening them up or shutting them down?

Jim
They are out of Spain with some office in the UK. They have been reported by people as a scam for a long time. One of the boats in Bundaberg that was damaged wwin hold in the hardstand was initially told there claim was denied because they weren't onboard when the incident occurred.
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 01:07   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,463
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goat View Post
I just find it strange that hull insurance is required in a marina. Liability coverage I understand and also appreciate. If someone backs into my boat in the marina (which has happened) I'm happy that the offender was required to have liability coverage.

goat
Makes it simpler for the marina.

If you have full coverage and it turns out the other boat dropped the insurance after providing proof to the marina or provided false documentation, they can let your full coverage insurance sort it out with the other guy.

If you only have liability insurance and the other guy dropped liability insurance, you are likely going try and drag the marina into it.

Then there is the secondary benefit... The guy with the nice 2yr old boat is likely to carry full coverage and pay the marina to do a lot of the maintenance work. The guy with the 40yr old $3k boat is likely more of a DIY and more likely not to want to pay for full coverage...from a profitability point of view full coverage is a great option for the marina.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 02:02   #58
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The boat: Cowes (Winter), Above 60N (Summer); me: somewhere in the air!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 21,294
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

To the OP: What "loopholes" are you talking about? An insurance policy is a contract. If you comply with the policy terms, the insurance company is obligated to pay out, and you can sue them if they refuse. If you don't comply with the policy terms -- or don't read or understand them -- then wouldn't you say it's your own fault? Some insurance companies are sleazy and try to avoid paying legitimate claims. What a surprise! You can find sleazy companies in any field. It's up to you to do your research and be sure to choose an ethical and reputable one. They certainly exist. And surprise surprise -- they are rarely the cheapest. That's because the sleazy ones make their money on that percentage of the population which is lazy and just goes with the cheapest option without doing any research.

As others have said -- a bright line should be drawn between liability insurance, and hull/machinery insurance, which are two completely different animals. I carry £5 million of liability insurance, about $7 million. If I hit a fisherman in a jon boat on a foggy day and cripple him for life, I will need every cent of that $7 million. I don't keep that kind of money in a bank account waiting to pay it out for this kind of thing. No matter how careful you are, no matter how good you are, accidents happen. Do you want to roll the dice on being financially ruined by one of them every time you go out? Even if the odds are fairly good? Do you feel lucky?

And as others have said, if you cause damage to someone and don't have the cash to pay for it (up to possibly millions of dollars), it is simply immoral not to have liability insurance.

As to hull/machinery insurance, as others have said, if you can afford to lose the boat, then by all means, go for it. Just keep in mind that in many and probably most cases, the accident which could cause the loss of your boat might not be your fault at all or even within your control. What if you are hit by an uninsured vessel?

I have never kept comprehensive insurance on my cars, not even expensive ones like a Porsche Turbo I once had, because I never drove a car I couldn't afford to replace out of ready cash (my principles of car buying since I was a teenager were always -- always buy used, always pay cash, never drive a car you can't afford to replace). But also because, note well -- other drivers are obligated to have liability insurance. That means that I don't have much risk at all, with cars, of having to replace my car at my expensive because someone else ran into it an couldn't afford to pay. It's different at sea -- many vessels are completely uninsured.

And that actually happened to me a couple of years ago -- a completely uninsured commercial fisherman t-boned my anchored boat and caused about $35k worth of damage. I could have paid for it myself, but that would be very, very annoying, and it could have been much worse. What if he had sunk my boat? As it was, my insurer (Pantaeneus UK) paid for everything, didn't take away my "no claims bonus", and didn't even charge me the deductible. So that just paid for about 15 years of premiums right there.

So am I glad I bought insurance rather than doing what you are thinking about doing? You bet your ace I am.

Life is full of risks. Insurance is just a tool for managing certain of them. I have been an entrepreneur for the last 25 years, in a high risk business. I deal with risks every day. But there is hardly anything I hate more than an UNNECESSARY risk. And that's why I don't have any mortgages on anything I sail or live in or drive, and the boat and houses are very well insured with reputable (not the cheapest) insurers. To my mind, my boat insurance is possibly the best money I ever spent on my boat.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-Ítre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2018, 13:25   #59
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 5,294
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
To the OP: What "loopholes" are you talking about? An insurance policy is a contract. If you comply with the policy terms, the insurance company is obligated to pay out, and you can sue them if they refuse. If you don't comply with the policy terms -- or don't read or understand them -- then wouldn't you say it's your own fault? .....
DH
That's a little unfair. The marine insurance contracts are full of terms that are open to various understanding and not easy for a layman to grasp. Voluntary abandonment, immediate notification, reasonably necessary.... for example.
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2018, 12:09   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,462
Re: Buying insurance worth it?

Quote: "I was more interested to hear if anyone has filed a claim with the insurance company only to have it rejected. Or anything of that sort. "

Don't ask such questions of a bunch of strangers on HolyMotherNet. That ranks right up there with objecting to insurance in general, which you say you do.

That paragon of American Free Ennerprize and avariciousness, Malcolm Forbes, printed right on the cover of that hyperbolic echo chamber of entrepreneurship,Forbes' Magazine: "With all thy getting, get understanding!"

Words to live by!!!

Go to your insurance broker - if you have one - a ask to see "the wordings" of a standard yacht policy. Then read them! And read them again. And then UNDERSTAND them.

An insurance policy is a contract covering a bet. The bet is simple: The Insurance Underwriter bets that you won't do something stupid and that Neptune won't make you his plaything. You bet that you WILL do something stoopid, and/or that Neptune and his trident are gonna have a jolly time victimizing you.

If you do do something stoopid, or Neptune gets intemperate - YOU win the bet. If you are a good skipper, which, judging by your post, you are not yet, and you spend 50 years at sea making no mistakes while Neptune lets you be because you ARE good, then the UNDERWRITER wins.

Back to the law of contract: If you understand the "wordings" - the terms of the contract - and you hold up YOUR end faithfully, then the underwriter CANNOT refuse to hold up HIS end! But if and when you claim, you'd better be able to show your mettle!!

So with all thy getting, get understanding!

All the best

TP
__________________

TrentePieds is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buying, insurance

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buying Repo worth the risk? Any experiences? b_mac Powered Boats 20 30-03-2015 00:58
One day worth of insurance for a haulout melissajenks General Sailing Forum 57 04-11-2013 18:05
Garmin 152 GPS / Plotter - Worth Buying ? chrome dome Navigation 3 13-09-2010 15:23
Buying Surveying and Insurance for Boat in Mexico dampman General Sailing Forum 3 19-12-2007 02:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.