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Old 11-01-2018, 13:11   #1
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Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

This is our first time buying abroad and I am wondering what the normal way of dealing with different languages / jurisdictions on the sale and purchase agreement is.

The RYA's advice is to use their agreement, and specifically to ensure that the contract is in English and that UK courts have jurisdiction for any disputes.

The draft agreement I have had through from the broker has an English translation, but it is is not precise and looks like it has just been pushed through Google translate. It also states disputes would be handled locally to them.

Is there a normal course of action here? Does the buyer or seller usually take precedence?
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Old 13-01-2018, 16:19   #2
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

I think there is no right or wrong here. Everything is up for negotiation.

I would demand a contract in a language I can read. Jurisdiction can be tricky, although UK jurisdiction would be preferable, if you are from UK, I think it would be difficult to actually demand it if the boat is sold outside of the UK. If it was me selling I would have difficult to accept such terms.

Depending on the value of the boat I would probably spend some money on someone that is familiar with the local judicial system.
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Old 16-01-2018, 09:24   #3
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

Yes, no joy on UK jurisdiction.

We've managed to negotiate a simplified sale and purchase agreement, with sufficient scope for backing out, and will get it professionally translated. I'm also now planning on going out to inspect the boat and documentation before paying the deposit.

So we won't have security on the purchase until the deposit is paid, and will need to make another trip out for sea trial / survey, but less risk to us to start with.

Cheers,

terah
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Old 16-01-2018, 09:43   #4
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pirate Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

It could depend on the country your buying in.. is it in the Schengen Zone or still an outside newcomer.. however try and get the RYA sale document used if possible.. see no reason why it would be refused to be honest.
Also you could check on Noonsite.com — for any feedback on problems/difficulties with authorities etc in that country..
It may not specifically cover buying and selling but should give you a fair outlook of the countries attitude towards the sailing community in general.
Best wishes..
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Old 18-01-2018, 12:40   #5
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

It is in Italy, so would hope the authorities side of things would be pretty straightforward.

No joy pushing for the RYA (or even MYBA) contract, but have organised translation of current documents and a review by UK lawyers so I think everything is in hand.

Biggest issue now is that the they don't seem to have the original invoice - Proving title and VAT status without original invoice - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 18-01-2018, 13:26   #6
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

I haven’t bought in Italy yet but you should contact their boat registry and ask them how it’s done and what information they have about the boat. In France for example, French customs does the registry and they won’t release the boat papers to the next owner until all outstanding debt on the boat has been paid. They will readily inform a potential buyer whether there is any and also what the VAT status is.

I don’t know what the Italian registry can do for you, but if the seller claims that the VAT is paid then you simply put that in your purchase agreement and then it is on them should it not be the case. Registering your boat based on that agreement should also constitute a proof of VAT paid status but better check with your registry to make sure what they want.
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Old 18-01-2018, 15:47   #7
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

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Originally Posted by 2big2small View Post
I haven’t bought in Italy yet but you should contact their boat registry and ask them how it’s done and what information they have about the boat. In France for example, French customs does the registry and they won’t release the boat papers to the next owner until all outstanding debt on the boat has been paid. They will readily inform a potential buyer whether there is any and also what the VAT status is.

I don’t know what the Italian registry can do for you, but if the seller claims that the VAT is paid then you simply put that in your purchase agreement and then it is on them should it not be the case. Registering your boat based on that agreement should also constitute a proof of VAT paid status but better check with your registry to make sure what they want.
TBH i don't think there is a single custom office around europe that would find your VAT solution satisfactory.

Its your responsibility to proof the VAT status of the boat, and you don't do it by referring to a contract with the seller. At the most what yo can do is to have a clause where the seller has to reimburse you for the VAT if you would have to pay it. But than it would be up to you to collect that reimbursement and that can proof to be tricky as well.
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Old 19-01-2018, 02:01   #8
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

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I haven’t bought in Italy yet but you should contact their boat registry and ask them how it’s done and what information they have about the boat.
Well just to further complicate things it is registered on the Dutch Kadaster, but have already requested the extracts from there to see what is listed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeEyes View Post
TBH i don't think there is a single custom office around europe that would find your VAT solution satisfactory.

Its your responsibility to proof the VAT status of the boat, and you don't do it by referring to a contract with the seller. At the most what yo can do is to have a clause where the seller has to reimburse you for the VAT if you would have to pay it. But than it would be up to you to collect that reimbursement and that can proof to be tricky as well.
I've started another thread (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ce-196271.html) specifically about the title/vat issues. They say they will get a T2L but I'm not sure how much weight that has in proving VAT paid.
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Old 19-01-2018, 02:29   #9
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

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Originally Posted by SnakeEyes View Post
TBH i don't think there is a single custom office around europe that would find your VAT solution satisfactory.

Its your responsibility to proof the VAT status of the boat, and you don't do it by referring to a contract with the seller. At the most what yo can do is to have a clause where the seller has to reimburse you for the VAT if you would have to pay it. But than it would be up to you to collect that reimbursement and that can proof to be tricky as well.
It all depends on what your registry wants and does. The French would accept what I said and since they are the customs they know the status of your VAT from their own registry and obviously won’t trouble you about it.

Having flagged French bought boats in Belgium I know it’s a satisfactory solution for BE too. My guess is the Dutch are just as accommodating.
Remeber it’s the UK thatis the odd one in the EU with their “common law” (if I got that term right).

It can also just be left on the Dutch registry to get started assuming the OP is an EU citizen. And assuming he’s UK, he’ll have no choice but to register in the UK before Brexit matrerializes.
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Old 20-01-2018, 05:11   #10
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

I bought the boat in Greece and the contract was in English. I think this broker sold most boats to foreign buyers.
I would insist on getting an English contract, if dual language contract it should state the English language one has precedence in any dispute about interpretation.
Insisting on UK courts is not likely to happen and the seller probably don't have any assets in the UK anyway.
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Old 20-01-2018, 05:25   #11
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

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Originally Posted by terah View Post
Well just to further complicate things it is registered on the Dutch Kadaster, but have already requested the extracts from there to see what is listed.



I've started another thread (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ce-196271.html) specifically about the title/vat issues. They say they will get a T2L but I'm not sure how much weight that has in proving VAT paid.

The Dutch Ships registry 'Scheeps Kadaster' is one of the (the ?) most thorough registrations for ships and yachts . Everything is registered there from Mortages , Liens and possibly the VAT status as well


One of the biggest pro's is that you can leave it registered there , also as a non-Dutch national . so you will have a lot of benefits if its already registered there and it should be absolutely no problem keeping it registered and sail with a Dutch flag and registration
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Old 20-01-2018, 06:09   #12
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

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Originally Posted by SnakeEyes View Post
I think there is no right or wrong here. Everything is up for negotiation.

I would demand a contract in a language I can read. Jurisdiction can be tricky, although UK jurisdiction would be preferable, if you are from UK, I think it would be difficult to actually demand it if the boat is sold outside of the UK. If it was me selling I would have difficult to accept such terms.

Depending on the value of the boat I would probably spend some money on someone that is familiar with the local judicial system.
The UK has its risks as well, I recently learned, that it's almost impossible to 100% prove a clear title. (Ownership yes, if all bills of sale are available, hidden mortgages not)
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Old 20-01-2018, 06:22   #13
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pirate Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

Maybe things have changed in the near 25yrs since that article.. or maybe not.
But then the ball is always in the buyers court to prove a clean purchase.
Cars are the same.. many have come unstuck in the past when folks bought a car only to find out that it had an outstanding loan on it further down the line.
However new legislation and laws have cut deeply into this game.
The downside with boats is.. under marine law any debt travels with the boat.. not the person who originated the debt.
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Old 20-01-2018, 06:38   #14
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Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

Is there any lawyer or broker is reliable there ?
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Old 20-01-2018, 06:52   #15
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pirate Re: Buying in Europe - Sale and Purchase agreement

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Maybe things have changed in the near 25yrs since that article.. or maybe not.
But then the ball is always in the buyers court to prove a clean purchase.
Cars are the same.. many have come unstuck in the past when folks bought a car only to find out that it had an outstanding loan on it further down the line.
However new legislation and laws have cut deeply into this game.
The downside with boats is.. under marine law any debt travels with the boat.. not the person who originated the debt.
PS: Finance Companies will not give out information about outstanding loans on boats as they will be contravening the Data Protection Act.
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