Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-08-2015, 23:15   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Sydney
Posts: 197
Buying a well worn ex charter?

I've been looking for a particular model boat for about a year now. A 5-7 year old ex charter boat to keep in charter for a couple of years. My plan is to use it quite often while I learn the ropes and finally cast off for a RTW trip in 2 years.

It would make things much simpler to purchase in Australia as I currently don't have the time or experience to embark on a delivery.

The only one I have found has had insufficient maintenance over the years. One plan is to purchase and possibly spend $50k to get it well up to date (on top of the $400k purchase price) I'm thinking $50k should well and truly cover things and I would be left with a nice boat. The tax benefits would be helpful for me.

The more patient part of my brain says to ignore a boat where the previous owner has skipped maintenance. Things like broken hatches have lead to major corrosion in some port windows, ignoring leaking sail drives for many months just topping up after each charter, and other things that if acted on early would have prevented more major problems in the long run. Why do people skip penny maintenance on $700k new boats?!?

I have done a detailed survey and inspected years of service records so there should not be too many surprises..... But you never really know!

I would be interested in other people's experiences in well worn ex charter boats.

Another option would be to wait a couple of years, and just fly somewhere like the BVI's and purchase a boat and sail away. But 2 more years away from a boat doesn't seem too attractive and with my current work of 26 days on, 9 days off I have plenty of time to use a boat right now.
__________________

__________________
Moonos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2015, 06:45   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,964
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

What type of boat are you looking for?

Boats are pretty tough and do get beat up a bit in charter, but much of that is superficial wear and tear, what usually really suffers is poorly maintained and heavily used engines. I would focus heavily on the condition of the engines.

Friends of mine bought a Leapord 47 out of the Moorings fleet and had to completely repower within a couple of years...big ouch!
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2015, 23:41   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Sydney
Posts: 197
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
What type of boat are you looking for?

Boats are pretty tough and do get beat up a bit in charter, but much of that is superficial wear and tear, what usually really suffers is poorly maintained and heavily used engines. I would focus heavily on the condition of the engines.

Friends of mine bought a Leapord 47 out of the Moorings fleet and had to completely repower within a couple of years...big ouch!
I looking at a 40-42 cat. My thoughts on the engine are to keep it going with existing gear for the 2 years I keep it in charter, and repower once I pull out of charter. But that would be budgeted for. I'd imagine 47 leopard engines wouldn't be cheap, especially if unplanned for.

I agree with you to a degree that much wear and tear is superficial and I could probably get a few mates together for a couple of weeks and give it a full going over on the hard.

I have seen privately owned boats still looking new after 10 years but that's liveaboards who probably do daily cleaning and maintenance stuff.

I saw one 5 year old ex charter boat that was so run down I wouldn't even feel confident chartering it for a week. I wonder how low he will have to go to find a buyer.
__________________
Moonos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2015, 23:54   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Port Welshpool Australia
Boat: sold swan new cat under construction / Canados 50s
Posts: 755
Images: 16
Send a message via Skype™ to beneteau-500
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Moonos these cats you looking at are they Whitsunday based cats if what your saying then the charter management company hasn't been doing the maintenance not the owner , if you have to spend that much then walk away , in another dissscussion on here on multi hulls I suggested a cat for sale in Brisbane it's a cyber48 it won't need any work just general maintenance it's going for 450k but you may get that price down , and I have been doing a lot of research in to prices of yachts in Oz , since I have been back and they are well over inflated
__________________
beneteau-500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 01:53   #5
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonos View Post
I've been looking for a particular model boat for about a year now. A 5-7 year old ex charter boat to keep in charter for a couple of years. My plan is to use it quite often while I learn the ropes and finally cast off for a RTW trip in 2 years.

It would make things much simpler to purchase in Australia as I currently don't have the time or experience to embark on a delivery.

The only one I have found has had insufficient maintenance over the years. One plan is to purchase and possibly spend $50k to get it well up to date (on top of the $400k purchase price) I'm thinking $50k should well and truly cover things and I would be left with a nice boat. The tax benefits would be helpful for me.

The more patient part of my brain says to ignore a boat where the previous owner has skipped maintenance. Things like broken hatches have lead to major corrosion in some port windows, ignoring leaking sail drives for many months just topping up after each charter, and other things that if acted on early would have prevented more major problems in the long run. Why do people skip penny maintenance on $700k new boats?!?

I have done a detailed survey and inspected years of service records so there should not be too many surprises..... But you never really know!

I would be interested in other people's experiences in well worn ex charter boats.

Another option would be to wait a couple of years, and just fly somewhere like the BVI's and purchase a boat and sail away. But 2 more years away from a boat doesn't seem too attractive and with my current work of 26 days on, 9 days off I have plenty of time to use a boat right now.
Your budget is $450K and you are looking to buy a banged up ex charter boat?????? Why on earth would you do that? Buy an older model well loved and superbly kitted out Rolls Royce, such as a Hinckley, Oyster, Trintella, Swan, Hallberg Rassy or similar. You can easily get such a craft completely loaded for such money. Check out Berthon for exceptional blue water cruisers in this category and AVOID ex charter boats!
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 01:56   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 242
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

If it's the seawind, skip it ... I've chartered one and I was less than amazingly impressed for the price.
__________________
jannw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 02:13   #7
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Your budget is $450K and you are looking to buy a banged up ex charter boat?????? Why on earth would you do that? Buy an older model well loved and superbly kitted out Rolls Royce, such as a Hinckley, Oyster, Trintella, Swan, Hallberg Rassy or similar. You can easily get such a craft completely loaded for such money. Check out Berthon for exceptional blue water cruisers in this category and AVOID ex charter boats!
Have just done a search on Berthon in your price range and there are 3 pages of SUPERB craft available. Several of them I have known personally and sailed on myself. Droolworthy.
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 05:23   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Sydney
Posts: 197
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Your budget is $450K and you are looking to buy a banged up ex charter boat?????? Why on earth would you do that? Buy an older model well loved and superbly kitted out Rolls Royce, such as a Hinckley, Oyster, Trintella, Swan, Hallberg Rassy or similar. You can easily get such a craft completely loaded for such money. Check out Berthon for exceptional blue water cruisers in this category and AVOID ex charter boats!
I'm looking for a cat not a monohull. Cats in this size in Australia are around the $400+k mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jannw View Post
If it's the seawind, skip it ... I've chartered one and I was less than amazingly impressed for the price.
Yes I think the seawinds are crazy overpriced second hand for some reason. Maybe people like them cause they are made in Australia, but I don't think even that is the case anymore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beneteau-500 View Post
Moonos these cats you looking at are they Whitsunday based cats if what your saying then the charter management company hasn't been doing the maintenance not the owner , if you have to spend that much then walk away , in another dissscussion on here on multi hulls I suggested a cat for sale in Brisbane it's a cyber48 it won't need any work just general maintenance it's going for 450k but you may get that price down , and I have been doing a lot of research in to prices of yachts in Oz , since I have been back and they are well over inflated
I had a look at that cyber 48 it is a very beautiful boat. I would like aluminium but there are 2 issues.

1. It might be difficult, expensive and time consuming to such a boat into survey. It would be really appealing to get a boat already in survey so I don't have to go through all that drama.
2. Part of my plan is to sail for a year, then leave at a marina for a few months then return and go for another year, etc. My concern is aluminium boats in a marina might have issues with electrolysis if left for a while. It seems possible this could be an issue regardless of how I set it up as it is dependant on other boats nearby. An option would be to put it on the hard, but that limits options really.

But the cyber 48 is such a good looking boat

The $50k budget I mentioned might be a bit much. It wouldn't need that much immediately. Maybe $20k now, and $30k to re power in a couple of years. But then things like sails and rigging will need to be looked at so more $$'s.
__________________
Moonos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 05:47   #9
Registered User
 
dirkdig's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Geelong,Australia
Boat: Lagoon 440 Pathfinder
Posts: 838
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

I looked at a 46ft cat ex charter on Hamilton Island.
The only value in it was a bit of scrap metal, this thing $585,000 was distroyed due to non existent maintenance.
That cat and a can of WD-40 had never met


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
dirkdig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2015, 16:42   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,964
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonos View Post
I looking at a 40-42 cat. My thoughts on the engine are to keep it going with existing gear for the 2 years I keep it in charter, and repower once I pull out of charter. But that would be budgeted for. I'd imagine 47 leopard engines wouldn't be cheap, especially if unplanned for.

I agree with you to a degree that much wear and tear is superficial and I could probably get a few mates together for a couple of weeks and give it a full going over on the hard.

I have seen privately owned boats still looking new after 10 years but that's liveaboards who probably do daily cleaning and maintenance stuff.

I saw one 5 year old ex charter boat that was so run down I wouldn't even feel confident chartering it for a week. I wonder how low he will have to go to find a buyer.
Might want to look into repower budgets...you will be VERY shocked what marine diesel's go for. I bet that repower cost them at least US$20K per side.

The problem with charter boats is that they are rental equipment. The charter company does not own them and the owner is absentee. The actual charterers are the least of the problem, its hard use (WAY more than normal recreational use) and minimal maintenance by the charter company that wears them down so fast. Five years of charter use is like 20 of normal use.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2015, 07:22   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Sydney
Posts: 197
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Might want to look into repower budgets...you will be VERY shocked what marine diesel's go for. I bet that repower cost them at least US$20K per side.

The problem with charter boats is that they are rental equipment. The charter company does not own them and the owner is absentee. The actual charterers are the least of the problem, its hard use (WAY more than normal recreational use) and minimal maintenance by the charter company that wears them down so fast. Five years of charter use is like 20 of normal use.
Thanks belizesailor all good advice.

In regards to aluminium boats, the more I read about them the more I fear the potential problems. You could never really leave it in a marina and be 100% sure there was not corrosion issues. I need to be able to lock it and leave it.

There's a nice manta 42 coming up with new 8kVA generator, engines, and a heap of other new gear, but only 2 double cabins and a small single cabin. Self tacking headsail, and good cruising setup is a plus though.
__________________
Moonos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2015, 08:40   #12
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Martinique
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,726
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

I recently bought a 40ft ex-charter Cat. I wouldn't say she was "beat up", but she was kept in Cuba where getting items can be difficult. The boat we purchased was 9 years old. 5 spent in the med with a family cruising, then 4 in charter in Cuba.

Let me first say.. 50K is probably a realistic budget WITHOUT A COMPLETE REPOWER. Once you start replacing things you will understand (especially if they have to be shipped to Australia). You can eat 5K in hatches, 8-15K standing rigging, 7-9K in sails, 6-8 in electronics, heck I spent $600 in just sewage hoses, ect. All those numbers are USD and at that point, you won't even have touched the "cosmetics". You can save an enormous amount if you do the work yourself.

The problem I see with your plan is most charter companies won't let you do the work. They need to turn the boat around and are required to get things moving as quickly as they can. You will be stuck paying for the labour. Your 50K budget may disappear fast.

As to repowering. For my Cat, I would choose either Nanni or Beta engines (30hp). Preliminary estimates to replace just the engine is about 10K USD per side. If I choose to replace the saildrive at the same time, then I'm looking at an extra 5K each side. So 30K USD to complety repower both sides. This estimate is based on the boat being in the USA close to either the Nanni or Beta dealer.

I don't want to be a party pooper, but I wanted you to have a realistic view from someone actually doing it. Likely you will purchase the boat and the initial maintenance would be cheap while its in charter. The charter companies are masters at quickly turning boats around with minimum cost. Unfortunatly that strategy just defers the "proper" repair. Once you pull her out of charter, then your 50 boat bucks will disappear fast.

Personally.. I think you would be much better holding off until you are ready to go. Then look to the Caribbean where boats are priced sanely (200k for a well equipped 40 foot Cat). In the mean time, get on NauticEd and start taking courses. Then book yourself a couple of charters to "learn the ropes". Its not really that hard, we bought our boat with our only experience on a small lake in the middle of Canada. Focus on safety and be cautious.
__________________
travellerw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2015, 11:35   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,964
Re: Buying a well worn ex charter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonos View Post
...
There's a nice manta 42 coming up with new 8kVA generator, engines, and a heap of other new gear, but only 2 double cabins and a small single cabin. Self tacking headsail, and good cruising setup is a plus though.
The M42 is a good cruising owners layout. Not a very good charter layout. Great boat overall, but depends on your intended use.
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buying, charter

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Worn Anchor Roller Replacement hoppy Anchoring & Mooring 24 21-12-2010 15:36
Worn Alternator Mounts Desmo Engines and Propulsion Systems 1 26-05-2010 17:43
Worn Propeller Shaft - Replace or Repair jskrypek Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 14-04-2010 06:37
Worn Out Engine Mounts JusDreaming Engines and Propulsion Systems 5 23-06-2009 17:18
WARNING: change when half worn. seafox Construction, Maintenance & Refit 36 22-03-2007 00:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.