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Old 27-06-2014, 07:12   #16
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

One thing not mentioned is the added ability to use boats in other locations and other boats. We've made use of every catamaran Moorings has at roughly a 90% discount as to what it would have cost at their regular rates and that is always split between us and the guests we take. Total charter time we've used in our 3 years of ownership is probably valued at well over $100k. Something we never would have been able to do otherwise.
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Old 27-06-2014, 07:15   #17
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

Someone can fill me in if I am missing something!?! But............

Seems pretty universally agreed that if you are not going to use the boat then it is a mugs game. However I have just looked up the cost of a week on a Leopard 38 in Miami through the Moorings and the Club one (I think that means not brand new) is £3675 for a week. (I am in the UK). Now if someone like me was in a position to use 2 weeks high season and 2 weeks low season (bookable in advance) and then more weeks short notice that seems to add up to a lot of money and surely changes the game??

I saw a price for a Leopard 38 of $279000 dollars? Or £163,000? I assume if bought in miami there would be 6% sales tax? Is that right? A lot less than the 20% VAT in the UK!

Questions: How much is the daily weekly charge with the moorings for using the boat?

Also cunningly I am a US citizen so no problems with visas etc?

So what is wrong with my plan of Miami/Keys/Bahamas for a couple of months a year??!!
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Old 27-06-2014, 07:17   #18
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

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Originally Posted by maytrix View Post
One thing not mentioned is the added ability to use boats in other locations and other boats. We've made use of every catamaran Moorings has at roughly a 90% discount as to what it would have cost at their regular rates and that is always split between us and the guests we take. Total charter time we've used in our 3 years of ownership is probably valued at well over $100k. Something we never would have been able to do otherwise.
This was posted while I was posting the next post! Seems to agree with what I thought. What are the daily/weekly charges?
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Old 27-06-2014, 07:21   #19
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

The owners fee is nominal - about $500 or so for a week or two weeks..etc. Same price.
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Old 27-06-2014, 07:45   #20
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

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Originally Posted by roblpm View Post
Someone can fill me in if I am missing something!?! But............

Seems pretty universally agreed that if you are not going to use the boat then it is a mugs game. However I have just looked up the cost of a week on a Leopard 38 in Miami through the Moorings and the Club one (I think that means not brand new) is £3675 for a week. (I am in the UK). Now if someone like me was in a position to use 2 weeks high season and 2 weeks low season (bookable in advance) and then more weeks short notice that seems to add up to a lot of money and surely changes the game??

I saw a price for a Leopard 38 of $279000 dollars? Or £163,000? I assume if bought in miami there would be 6% sales tax? Is that right? A lot less than the 20% VAT in the UK!

Questions: How much is the daily weekly charge with the moorings for using the boat?

Also cunningly I am a US citizen so no problems with visas etc?

So what is wrong with my plan of Miami/Keys/Bahamas for a couple of months a year??!!
If you have more money than sense then yes, there are plenty of companies out there specialising in taking the former off you.

Who ever pays these headline rates? They can be 10% of those before the booking. To this day, I have never met anyone who has paid the brochure rate on a charter. It doesn't happen.

And for £3675, you can actually buy a yacht (forever).

Tim.
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Old 27-06-2014, 07:52   #21
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

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If you have more money than sense then yes, there are plenty of companies out there specialising in taking the former off you.

Who ever pays these headline rates? They can be 10% of those before the booking. To this day, I have never met anyone who has paid the brochure rate on a charter. It doesn't happen.

And for £3675, you can actually buy a yacht (forever).

Tim.
OK good stuff! So what is the going discount for this sort of thing?

So if I want to spend 2 months a year in the sun on a boat is it cheaper then to buy a boat in florida, pay to park it, worry about it the other 10 months of the year?

I have a boat 20 minutes from my house at the moment which I am already thinking that I havent turned the gas off since I was there on Wednesday night!

So I should price up a 5 year old cat, mooring fees etc and someone to look after it when I am not there.

I still dont see chartering for 2 months being the cheapest option?

Also I like the idea of popping to greece for a week or 2!

All idle dreams while I am supposed to be working.Living in Edinburgh is great but the lack of daylight in the winter is seriously difficult!
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Old 27-06-2014, 07:55   #22
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

I'd say with a company like moorings/sunsail I think you can usually get at least 15% off. For a repeat customer, maybe 20%. Any more than that is probably unusual unless booking at the last minute. As an owner, when I sell time it's 30% off.
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Old 27-06-2014, 08:54   #23
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

It appears that the marina fees for a year in Miami Beach marina would be $12,000 for a 40ft boat.

Thats £7000 UK.

Lets say I pay £175,000 for a boat with the moorings inc 6% florida sales tax.

At 6% thats £2000 a month on a 10 year repayment loan.

I get 9% from the moorings which is £15750 so I need to pay £8250 a year. Also a bit of charter fees etc.

At the end of 5 years my balance is £100,000 on the loan. Is the boat worth that much??!!

Lets say it is roughly worth £80k. So that adds on another 4k a year for the first 5 years.

So the whole thing has cost me £60k or £12k a year. For 6-8 weeks a year on the boat or £1500 a week.

I dont think I can do it for less owning the boat??

If I get bored after 1 year it is monetary suicide! If I love it like Maytrix it makes sense!

Horses for courses I think.

I need some sun!!
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Old 27-06-2014, 08:58   #24
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

My price must be wrong?? 2001 model on yachtworld is £138000!!

How much is a Leopard 38??!!
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Old 27-06-2014, 09:02   #25
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

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Originally Posted by roblpm View Post
OK good stuff! So what is the going discount for this sort of thing?

So if I want to spend 2 months a year in the sun on a boat is it cheaper then to buy a boat in florida, pay to park it, worry about it the other 10 months of the year?

I have a boat 20 minutes from my house at the moment which I am already thinking that I havent turned the gas off since I was there on Wednesday night!

So I should price up a 5 year old cat, mooring fees etc and someone to look after it when I am not there.

I still dont see chartering for 2 months being the cheapest option?

Also I like the idea of popping to greece for a week or 2!

All idle dreams while I am supposed to be working.Living in Edinburgh is great but the lack of daylight in the winter is seriously difficult!
Roblpm, these are the imponderables we are trying to ponder. Using a boat for a couple of months a year is possibly the perfect boundary of where advice kilters.

It will usually be cheaper to buy a second hand boat, overall.

Having someone to keep an eye on her is necessary if you are mostly going to be absent. This does not have to be a marina or a pro but someone you can trust and is moderately practical if required - a local contact who can be repaid with sailing and a few meals out.

Buy a couple of books on DIY yacht maintenance and save more than you would pay any trades persons a few weeks of their time by spending one week a year yourself doing your own regular maintenance.

The apparent burdens can be a pleasure.

Tim.
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Old 27-06-2014, 09:15   #26
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

If you are going to use the boat for a couple months at a time, it might be better to buy a used boat and put it into charter with a company like Conch or something like that where you could pull it out for a couple of months and charter and have them manage it and get you revenue the rest of the time.
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Old 27-06-2014, 09:19   #27
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

I mentioned the Owner's fee in my initial post. They have since switched to a turn around fee which is overall cheaper and is per use regardless of how long you use the boat, in contrast to the previous owner's fee arrangement which was a daily charge. For me that was about $50/day and included cleaning, dingy use and fuel.

I believe the Moorings turn around fee still includes fuel, and believe the Sunsail turn around fee is less, but does not include fuel.

Every boat purchase is different, every potential charter fee is different and time use can vary, so I think everyone needs to consider their own potential use and crunch the numbers themselves.

Some things like not having to deal with maintenance or the ability to sail at any number of different locations as Maytrix indicated are hard to put a price value on.
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Old 27-06-2014, 10:50   #28
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

As to keeping your money and buying the boat ex-charter all in all that makes sense to me. Yes you get a charter version and not an owner version but life is compromise.

I have a buddy bought a 36 mono from Sunsail - they seem very motivated to make the buyer happy - they had 6 boats coming out at once - he did not get his pick of litter but they threw in a new RIB dink with motor "and" put in a new diesel engine!

He is very happy with this boat - I have sailed it with him a lot and it is a "good" deal.

I have approached the sunsail and Leopard people (at a boat show) about getting "on the list" to buy a leopard out of charter and try to get priority. The are adding boats to their fleets now.

We'll see what happens as this develops over the next few years.
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Old 27-06-2014, 11:34   #29
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

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As to keeping your money and buying the boat ex-charter all in all that makes sense to me. Yes you get a charter version and not an owner version but life is compromise.

I have a buddy bought a 36 mono from Sunsail - they seem very motivated to make the buyer happy - they had 6 boats coming out at once - he did not get his pick of litter but they threw in a new RIB dink with motor "and" put in a new diesel engine!

He is very happy with this boat - I have sailed it with him a lot and it is a "good" deal.
.
Many people focus on the fact that charter boats get a lot of use from people who have no vested interest in the boat, which is true. However, charter companies also must maintain their boats to a fairly high standard. Most boats for sale by owner that I've seen are much more neglected and in need of repair than most charter boats I've been on.
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Old 27-06-2014, 20:05   #30
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Re: Buying a boat in Charter Management: The final numbers

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Yes but that is a real depreciation, not just a paper depreciation for tax purposes. Unless your marginal tax rate is over 100% you won't win!
No, a depreciation schedule for tax purposes is not the same thing as actual market based depreciation. Not sure what you mean by "win", but it can reduce your taxable income in typical USA tax brackets. Been there, done that.
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