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Old 19-02-2007, 16:10   #16
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Terry-
I would say the best use of a spreadsheet with refitting comes into being able to set a "great bargain" "catalog price" "list price" split for each purchase, so you can anticipate expenses and the variation in costs/sources. At the same time, you can estimate labor for each item. On a boat project many of us would say the rule of thumb is that if you think a project will take an hour, it can't take more than eight or ten.<G>

You just need one screw...but it has to be stainless, so you need to wait a week and mail order it. Or you need six feet of wire, but it has to be tinned and that means going to the chandlery, or waiting another week. Hiring a pro? Ask them if their estimate is guaranteed not to exceed a certain value.

Finding a good contractor (plumber, electrician, cabinetmaker, whatever) is often an ordeal for everyone these days, and if you can find a good one, you're going to pay dearly for their talent. So especially in your case, you might be happier to do the refit yourself, and do it your way. A lot of that depends on how much your time is worth to you, how much time you have available, and whether you can find good local labor.

One advantage to doing the work yourself, is that you will know the boat & systems much more intimately. And that can be a good thing when you have to maintain it "out there" someplace.
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Old 19-02-2007, 16:30   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspringer
70' underwater and your refitting??!?!? Any chance you have a website or such following the project? I would love to follow along.

Taking several months off work to live aboard and focus 12 hours a day on refitting sounds GREAT to me. I do enjoy such efforts. But, the truth is that while I would RATHER be working on the boat I seriously doubt the money I would save by doing the work myself would equal the money I did not earn because I was not in the office running my company. But, if paying others to do work does not result in the work being done to my standards then I am right back where I started but out big $$$$. Definitely a tough choice and difficult situation.


Terry
After a sinking its a rebuild rather than refit, or strip it down to bare hull and start from there. It was exactly 5 years ago now and its quite a story starting with a guy driving to seattle buying a boat to take him to Alaska. Trouble is the guy knew very little about boats or seamanship, and after luckily making it up this far, he left the severly overloaded 32' samson c-mist ferro cutter alone to fare against a hurricane force storm continually pounding her into a solid piling. (he didn't want to pay $120/month to park at the marina) Being a diver I had a look, and salvaged her for the excellent rigging and deckfittings if nothing else. Turns out a "PROPER BUILT" Ferro boat is very easy to fix, (there was no damage to the amarture) All rigging and sails were good, had to build a new rudder and hatch, patch a hole, and all systems and wiring are new, except the engine. That is where I had the nightmare experience from my local Yanmar dealer. I'm repowering this year with a new Kubota. Its been a great boat, I've sailed, lived aboard, and even charted it, here in my home waters. I'm doing interior finishing/upgrades now and will start getting my "crew" (girlfriend and our daughters 8 & 9) experienced this year. I do have pictures of the project and will get them posted.

regards,
Channing
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Old 19-02-2007, 16:36   #18
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Our boat is 61'. When we bought it it had 3' of water in it for several months. We have worked many many hours to bring her back and spent $75000 in parts like a new engine, genset etc etc.
If you are asking if I would do it again? Yes, in a heart beat!
Would I be happier with a smaller boat? Hell no.
Do I ever let the yard touch my boat? NEVER.
In the photo section of this board, I must have 50 pictures of some of the projects that we have taken on.
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Old 19-02-2007, 16:57   #19
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Sailing Magazine

The Irwim 52 is a great boat for the money.
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Old 19-02-2007, 17:04   #20
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Aloha Terry,
Hope you didn't think that I was raining on your parade. Like I said, my experience says 36 is the longest I need. You'll probably choose larger because you don't need it but want it to please the family. That's ok. I wish you well and hope you find the right boat.
I've visited a couple of Fuji 45s and sailed on Cal 2-46 and Celestial 46 and a Herreschoff Marco Polo 55. Of course, they were all too big for my liking. The cheapest to purchase was the Fuji but many more refit dollars were spent to make it their home.
Kind Regards,
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Old 19-02-2007, 17:19   #21
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Skiprjohn... Want vs Need. I agree there 100%. I have no doubt that we could do the trip we want on a 35' boat. I just think the larger boat would be overall less expensive.

You see, a new mast and rigging is cheap compared to a divorce attorney! If we didnt have the kids and were not sure that we would have Grandparents staying with us as often as once a month I would demand smaller. But, we will just learn to deal with and love a bit bigger boat.


Irwinsailor:

The Irwin 52's have intrigued me and I have read that article. But... while Kretschmer does clearly like the Irwin 52, he said that if he were taking his family around the world he would buy a Gulfstar 50.

Seriously, I have read all I can find on them. I love the interior layout and space. Working on stuff is so much easier when its not crammed into a super tight space and the Irwin 52 has lots of mechanical spaces. I have even called Gene Gammon up and spoken to him about them. So, they are on the list. But, compared to a Gulfstar 50 an Irwin 52' seems a much bigger boat. That may be good in some ways, but not sure overall at least for us. How have you used yours? Would you sail her across oceans? Do you think the Irwin 52' is a good ocean crossing boat?



Terry
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Old 19-02-2007, 18:17   #22
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Yard Work

Terry,

Responding to your question about the value of having a yard work on your boat, I have a good answer for you. Just because they charge you $80 to $100. per hour to repair your boat, chances are a person earning $12 an hour is doing the work!!

I always chuckle when I see a boat for sale with a comment saying "always yard maintained". That could be the worse part of the boat. Obviously, the owner didn't know how to work on the vessel and also has no idea to the quality of the work done.

HERON
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Old 19-02-2007, 18:50   #23
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I agree with your Idea of getting a 50+ boat for your situation. My woman also wants a bigger boat. Since I already have the 32', big enough for now, and until I see how eager my crew is to do extended cruising, upgrading is a while off. Each crew member having there "own space" is important on any extended cruise. If I was in you situation, and I may be in the future, I would consider this option, Origami Magic
I know Jean Marc, have checked out his boat and am very impressed with it, the separate aft cabin, twin engines, water tight doors and bulkheads. He has sailed his 50 footer solo in 55 knot gails. The design has been refined a bit as his was the first. He has about $200,000Cd. into it and thats hiring out about 75% of the work.
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Old 19-02-2007, 18:51   #24
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Tspringer...we own and cruise a larger boat (52'Tayana) and bought her at a good price but had to put another 50% of purchase price in to make her suitable for our cruising needs (which seem to be a lot like yours). We had been looking for a more expensive boat in closer to "ready to go" condition for 1.5 years but everything was either overpriced or just not right for us. Finally we gave in and got a boat we loved and could "make right" within our budget....and without exceeding the market value of the finished boat.
I would not do it again as it was a lot of hot, aggravating work and time and expense...but we are very pleased with the result.
One good thing was that we found a marina that didn't mind me doing stuff on my own AND didn't mind me acting as a helper for the real craftsmen who taught me a lot along the way about the boat and how o troubleshoot the systems which paid off during cruising big time.
We were living on a different boat while all this work was going on, and it would have been almost impossible to try to live and work on the same boat. If you have to move aboard immediately with the kids when you buy I would say get something ready to go.
As to cruising in a larger boat...mine is no more difficult to handle than my previous boats AND safer in the big stuff...no bow thrusters and no dings yet! Don't let anyone discourage you...just rig it so you can safely handle it from the cockpit. Good hunting!!
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Old 19-02-2007, 19:01   #25
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We have only sailed the Great lakes with our boat so far. We bought it for cruising the world but we can not go due to family members battling cancer.
I will only speak of my boat, I would sail it anywhere that I wanted to go. It has been a dream come true for us.
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Old 19-02-2007, 22:13   #26
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Very few boats are ready to go...

Like you I started out looking for a ready to go boat.
What I found was that even the best secondhand boats offered are not ready to go.
It seems that most owners get themselves a boat, get it ready for whatever they want, and then stop work.
Trouble is, the time between when they stop work and when they sell can be from two to twenty years and in their mind the boat is still perfect.
Buyers will quickly snap up anything that even looks like it is any good, no matter what the price.
In the end I gave up.
Trying to buy a boat in good condition was going to get me an overpriced heap of s#*@.
So I brought a boat that was in need of a total build.
I'm estimating 1500 hours and $40,000 to coastal cruising condition with another 500 hours and $30,000 to bluewater cruising condition.
I can only echo those who have been disappointed in the quality of workmanship that is available at any price. If you want it done right then you have to do it yourself.
If you have 5 years to go then you should allow 2 years to find the boat, and 2400 hours of work to fix it. Say 800 hours a year or 16 hours a week.
Also if you can get the boat onto dry land to work on it it is so much better.
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Old 19-02-2007, 23:16   #27
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I have seen and heard the same thing many times. Unless you have been worked on boats refurbishing them, you may not want to do this. Not fixing (or doing a bad job) a bad bulkhead or ...... can cause a lot of extra work latter. Getting a boat ready for blue water condition, well. Read some of the logs of people who have done it and those who have not but sailed away anyway. Examin cost, time, security.

If you could go with a smaller, new boat, it might be better. My thoughts. To note - I bought a new 26' coastal cruiser instead of a used boat because of this AND changed my plans to cruiseing coastal/Bahamas. I leave in Nov for 3 to 5 years cruising.
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Old 20-02-2007, 01:50   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris31415
I'm estimating 1500 hours and $40,000 to coastal cruising condition with another 500 hours and $30,000 to bluewater cruising condition.
I can only echo those who have been disappointed in the quality of workmanship that is available at any price. If you want it done right then you have to do it yourself.
If you have 5 years to go then you should allow 2 years to find the boat, and 2400 hours of work to fix it. Say 800 hours a year or 16 hours a week.
Also if you can get the boat onto dry land to work on it it is so much better.
or you can just build from scratch and have a new boat in the same amount of time and money 2-3000 hrs and 70000-10000
sean
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Old 20-02-2007, 02:37   #29
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From Scratch...

My costings on building (this was for a 42' mono) from scratch was 4,000+ hours and $140,000.
A ply power cat of 37' would be cheaper, but the hours would be about the same having about the same surface area as the 42' mono with a larger number of smaller parts (two engines, steering etc.).
The real killer in building from scratch is site access and rent.
I could not manage a 45min drive each way and $100+pw rent. On my current daily hours it would have taken me 5 years to build - I would be too old to use the boat by the time it was finished.
As it is now I will have a servicable boat within a year.
I feel it comes down to individual circumstances. If I had had a useable building block next to my house I would have started building years ago.
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Old 20-02-2007, 03:04   #30
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Hi Terry.Have you completely ruled out ideas of a catamaran? Josef
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