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Old 28-03-2011, 16:15   #16
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Re: Brokers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckwheat View Post
I am with you 100% with your comments above, but are there boats that I will not find? Some of the time someone in the business is going to come up with a boat that never found it's way onto Y. World. They sold the boat before, repo, etc. You are limiting yourself to what you can find personally.
Based on my experience with a buyer broker two years ago, the broker didn't know of any boats other than what was listed on yachtworld.com. He didn't look on any other web sites. He didn't know of any boats lurking around with for sale signs. He had no desire to call around to everyone in his contacts looking for my boat. One could say that's a sign of a lazy broker. One could also say that his only motivation in being a broker is to get paid (rightly so) and the boats on yachtworld.com are more likely to be a source of income to him rather than the for sale by owner seller who has already made the decision that he's not paying commission. When a broker gets a listing, it's a matter of hours before that boat gets onto yachtworld.com, as that's how he's going to sell it. If you're working with that one particular broker, you'll at best get "first dibs", but that boat will still make it onto yachtworld.com quickly. Unless you're available to make an offer the same day the boat gets listed, I would doubt the broker would hold off on placing the boat on yachtworld.com just so you can come out and look at the boat. If I were a broker, I wouldn't wait.

So, don't let the idea that a broker has a better chance or opportunity to find your perfect boat force you into dealing with a boat broker. Despite the potential income involved for the broker, you are more motivated to look under every rock for your boat than any broker is. If you're comfortable with completing the purchase transaction without the help of a broker, continue your search solo.

Kevin
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Old 28-03-2011, 22:11   #17
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Re: Brokers ?

The seller is only worried about how many dollars he receives from the sale. There is nothing to say that I could make the brokers % a part of my offer.

Say I buy it from the listing broker and the listing commission is 10%. I could make an offer to the owner stating brokers commission to be paid at an amount of 5%. What is he going to say, I won't take it? His seller is looking at him with a whole new perspective.

I appreciate the insight all of you have contributed.

DW
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Old 28-03-2011, 23:44   #18
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Re: Brokers ?

I always get a chuckle when people think the seller is paying the broker...

WHO is bringing the money to the table?

If you are the buyer, the commission is just money the seller has to include in his price....

Brokers mean the buyer pays more... AND the seller gets less.... no two ways around it.
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Old 29-03-2011, 01:30   #19
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Re: Brokers ?

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Originally Posted by Duckwheat View Post
......He gave me a lesson in boat brokers. No matter how remote the connection they will claim some sort of relationship with the purchaser. I do not mind paying someone who worked and helped me, but not much on freeloaders.

What sort of experiences have you guys had?

DW
To the rest of the world, many US brokerage companies are considered parasites, not averse to using Mafia style techniques to force selling brokers or new yacht builders into guaranteeing them a commission, just because of some loose connection they may have had in showing a potential Buyer a few used yachts.

Miami and Ft. Lauderdale being the worst!

Case in point, a few years ago, my employer and I (his captain) looked at a few large used yachts for sale at the Lauderdale show.

I had been faxing a well known “Lauderdale Agency” and others, to find out what was available and this one showed us 3 yachts which if we had purchased one of those, they would have earned a commission.

….Seeing nothing of interest there or elsewhere to meet our custom needs, I contacted all the top builders in Europe and US, to explore a new build.

At every initial meeting with the CEO of the yard, this “Agencies” name would come up and I was conversationally asked about the relationship?

Finally it twigged on me that something was up and I asked point blank if this Agency had contacted them about us?

Most refused to answer, then one brave builder told me the score and showed me the fax;

“Please confirm “???Agency” as broker on record for Mr??? and his representative Captain??? for 7% of contract price”

Then he went on to explain that if they did not agree to cooperate, the influential Florida Broker Association would blacklist that yard, spread rumors about failed welds or whatever negative thing they could come up with to scare these billionaire clients away.

Armed with a copy of that fax, I contacted every builder and they reluctantly admitted they had all received a similar fax.

I then asked them all to provide me with written confirmation that they understood that “No Agency” was involved in a New Build for my employer with me as his representative, and that no commissions would be paid.

Many were afraid to sign such a letter citing concerns about adverse repercussions from the broker and that any amounts paid.... would come off their profits!

This only pissed me off some more….So I went after the “Agency” both legally and with the threat to expose the whole shoddy scheme in one of my boss’s publications unless every yard we were considering could provide me with a letter confirming that the “Agency” had retracted their claim.

They finally produced such a letter and we eventually went on to build a very successful $60m yacht with a famous builder, knowing that 14% (some captain’s also want their cut...) ......could be taken off the initial offer.

Prior to the internet a “Buyer’s Broker” had some real value in finding a used yacht for sale..... but today, it is an unnecessary expense that you should reserve for a proper survey, without the complicating risks as above.
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Old 29-03-2011, 08:53   #20
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Re: Brokers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
To the rest of the world, many US brokerage companies are considered parasites, not averse to using Mafia style techniques to force selling brokers or new yacht builders into guaranteeing them a commission, just because of some loose connection they may have had in showing a potential Buyer a few used yachts.

Miami and Ft. Lauderdale being the worst!

Case in point, a few years ago, my employer and I (his captain) looked at a few large used yachts for sale at the Lauderdale show.

I had been faxing a well known “Lauderdale Agency” and others, to find out what was available and this one showed us 3 yachts which if we had purchased one of those, they would have earned a commission.

….Seeing nothing of interest there or elsewhere to meet our custom needs, I contacted all the top builders in Europe and US, to explore a new build.

At every initial meeting with the CEO of the yard, this “Agencies” name would come up and I was conversationally asked about the relationship?

Finally it twigged on me that something was up and I asked point blank if this Agency had contacted them about us?

Most refused to answer, then one brave builder told me the score and showed me the fax;

“Please confirm “???Agency” as broker on record for Mr??? and his representative Captain??? for 7% of contract price”

Then he went on to explain that if they did not agree to cooperate, the influential Florida Broker Association would blacklist that yard, spread rumors about failed welds or whatever negative thing they could come up with to scare these billionaire clients away.

Armed with a copy of that fax, I contacted every builder and they reluctantly admitted they had all received a similar fax.

I then asked them all to provide me with written confirmation that they understood that “No Agency” was involved in a New Build for my employer with me as his representative, and that no commissions would be paid.

Many were afraid to sign such a letter citing concerns about adverse repercussions from the broker and that any amounts paid.... would come off their profits!

This only pissed me off some more….So I went after the “Agency” both legally and with the threat to expose the whole shoddy scheme in one of my boss’s publications unless every yard we were considering could provide me with a letter confirming that the “Agency” had retracted their claim.

They finally produced such a letter and we eventually went on to build a very successful $60m yacht with a famous builder, knowing that 14% (some captain’s also want their cut...) ......could be taken off the initial offer.

Prior to the internet a “Buyer’s Broker” had some real value in finding a used yacht for sale..... but today, it is an unnecessary expense that you should reserve for a proper survey, without the complicating risks as above.
I like it! Good for you and having the resources to follow through on that C_ _ P!
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Old 29-03-2011, 09:08   #21
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Re: Brokers ?

I prefer to deal with the listing broker. Here's why. If he/she sells the boat to YOU, they get a double dip on the commission. While, legally, they represent the seller, what they REALLY represent is their wallet. An offer (discounted) that pays the broker double is WAY more important to the broker than an offer that has another broker involved. They will become much more interested in the deal, and try a LOT harder to get the owner to accept your offer.

And, no. Don't sign ANYTHING.
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Old 29-03-2011, 09:33   #22
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Re: Brokers ?

I've bought and sold perhaps 12-15 boats ranging in size from 25 to 54 feet. In only 2 cases did I use a broker as a seller but I have used a broker I knew well as a buyer in several cases. I did not sign a contract with him to find a boat I was interested in but did provide him with an extensive list of 'must have's, would like to have', length, design, power and sail configurations, etc. If you sign a contract with a broker to find you a boat and you happen on one yourself, you may find yourself involved litigation over whether or not he had any connection with the boat you found on your own. Brokers are particularly hungry and litigious at the moment so I would advise staying away from a written agreement with him to search and represent you as a buyer. A broker representing a buyer will show you boats on which they hold the listing first... more $ in their pocket. They may bad mouth other similar boats not in their listings inventory. Yachtworld and Yacht Trader are good sources for boats in your area to visit to get a feel for what is available locally. Do not discount traveling out of country to check out promising opportunites. On the west coast, many folks have done the cruise to Mexico and abandoned their dream boat in La Paz, San Carlos or PV and these can be had for pennies on the dollar in some cases. Great deals in South and Central America as well. Write down what you want, would like to have and start wearing out your shoe leather. Don't forget to survey before you buy... cheers and good luck, Capt Phil
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Old 29-03-2011, 09:35   #23
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Re: Brokers ?

Being only curious and not buying for a year use the sellers broker for your look see. I think YachtWorld is about all the broker knows. Craigslist and some freebee internet sites for fsbos is the only other source.

The sellers broker shows the boat and gets points with the seller for doing so. When it is time to buy you will range far and wide and "your" broker is not going to drive all over the NW, he is going to sit and call to set up your appointment.
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Old 29-03-2011, 09:42   #24
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Re: Brokers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bstreep View Post
I prefer to deal with the listing broker. Here's why. If he/she sells the boat to YOU, they get a double dip on the commission. ....
.....And, no. Don't sign ANYTHING.
Good advice not to sign anything, but how about the idea of dealing with the seller?

If the seller has a $100,000 boat, the broker is getting a percentage of that sale. If you are the buyer, you are bringing $7-$10k to the table for no other purpose then to support the broker....

Why not do a little extra work to locate a boat not listed with a broker?

We have an excellent 'for sale' section on this board, and there are many others.... I know some boats are going to be locked into the grasp of a broker some where, and you may HAVE to deal with them...

the point of this post is to encourage some to consider going a different way...

The idea that someone is entitled to a percentage of the sale is a fallacy. Avoid where necessary, and IF you have to use one make sure you get what you pay for.
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Old 29-03-2011, 09:58   #25
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Re: Brokers ?

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Originally Posted by Duckwheat View Post
The seller is only worried about how many dollars he receives from the sale. There is nothing to say that I could make the brokers % a part of my offer.
You can try this, but you will very likely be unsuccessful. The seller's broker commission percentage is already negotiated in the listing contract between the seller's broker and the seller. While you can put whatever language you want into your offer, the seller will be forced to reject your offer if the seller's broker refuses to reduce his commission to the percentage you specify in the offer. I have seen real estate brokers reduce their commission in order to close a sale, so I imagine it is possible for boat brokers. However, you're giving an additional third party the opportunity to say "no" to your offer - and this additional third party has no real motivation to say "yes" unless they're near the end of their listing contract and your reduced commission looks better than $0.

You're right though, the seller is only worried about how many dollars (or euros, or pounds) he receives. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the bottom line. For better or worse, the only line item you really have full control over is the top line - the offer price. While I understand you want to slap away the hands pulling dollars out between the top and bottom lines, most of the time, that's difficult to do, if at all possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckwheat View Post
Say I buy it from the listing broker and the listing commission is 10%. I could make an offer to the owner stating brokers commission to be paid at an amount of 5%. What is he going to say, I won't take it? His seller is looking at him with a whole new perspective.
He will say "I won't take it." He will say "We have a contract saying that you will pay 10%." Since you're making the offer to the seller's broker not directly to the seller, there's a possibility that the sellers will never see your offer with 5% commission.

Kevin
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Old 29-03-2011, 10:14   #26
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Re: Brokers ?

Seattle/Portland Craigs List is another search option. Walking marina docks is another way to find potential boats in the N/W. I've sold a couple boats just putting a for sale sign on the bow in the slip, and many others do the same. Even in secure marinas, a little patience will gain you access, or tell someone what you're wanting access for and you can usually get in. Curiosity, what kind of boat you looking for? I've bought 3 boats from brokers, with varying amounts of professionalism, the last experience the worst. It's been 7 months, and even though I have the title, I'm still working on getting it right, also the broker didn't disclose the liens that were on the boat (3 mos. to straighten out). I don't believe some brokers are held to much of an ethics standard. imo. Good luck with your search! Unless your "agent" is a very trustworthy friend, I would not enter into an agreement. Robert Perry offers a boat inspecting service you might want to consider, it costs about $500 and is for the client until he finds his boat, there is a link on his website.
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Old 29-03-2011, 13:57   #27
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Re: Brokers ?

If you find a Broker whose boat details all match the reality - then marry him

Otherwise use it as a guide for how much he really knows. or cares.

Plan B would be to find someone else you don't know to give large amounts of money to, whilst crossing your fingers and humming la la la It's not my plan - but if you don't know otherwise, it's probably yours
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Old 29-03-2011, 15:12   #28
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Re: Brokers ?

Many "pearls of wisdom" in these responses!

A couple of months ago I decided to consider a cheap, older boat with decent inherent abilities, in La Paz, with the intention of putting a lot of money into it, to "bring it up to snuff". This consideration came about after viewing/considering a lot of boats between $20k & $40k, which all needed a further $20k-$40k to make them suitable for offshore use(my standards). I figured that starting from scratch would allow me to choose the equipment, fixtures, & modifications that I prefered. The boat, which is still for sale, was a Cal 30(original version) and was being sold for less than $8k(USD). As the seller is a member of these forums, I do not wish to offend him, simply to point out to sellers & brokers what I believe are the reasonable expectations of a prospective buyer.

Originally, there weren't a lot of photos in the ad that allowed one to make a preliminary decision. The broker sent me more photos, which began to paint a better picture of possible issues. What I requested from the beginning was an inventory of systems, including age/condition of sails, s & r rig, etc. . According to the broker, the seller thought that I wanted too much info. when considering the asking price. I told the broker - and re-iterate, here - that I didn't care if the boat was selling for $1 or $1million, I wanted to know what was/was not included and what was/was not operable. This seems reasonable to me.

While awaiting a response I did some research; by asking a friend in La Paz to have a glance at the boat, and; by searching for info online. I knew that the boat had participated in the 2010 Baja Ha Ha & discovered that there was only one Cal 30 which did so. I ran the boat owner's name in the search engine on CF - and elsewhere - and learned a little more about the boat, it's engine, etc. .

In the end, the broker felt that it was my future surveyor's responsibility to develop an inventory list and not her's. I agreed that I didn't think she should have to go to the yard & crawl around the boat, but pointed out that the seller had the info. already and I had no intention of hiring a surveyor until I felt that the boat was worth surveying. Of key concern to me was the the period of time the chimney had been removed from the deck as, in expanding photos, there appeared to be a separation between the wood core & upper layer of glass of the resulting hole.

Because of the cheap selling price, many negative aspects of the boat, if shared, may not have turned out to be deal-breakers. As previously stated, I expected to put a lot of money into the boat, anyway.

In comparison, I've not had to "pull teeth" when asking for info. from Canadian brokers, nor in dealing with private American & Canadian sellers on this site & others. As California seems to have the "lion's share" of listings on this coast, we're heading that way - after I renew my passport - to enjoy that beautiful State & check out a ton of boats.

I hope this post serves to assist sellers & brokers in realizing that I - and there are probably many others - am not expecting a perfect boat, but will not spend money on an unknown item.

Mike
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