Visit our Popular Forums

stefano_ita · 08-02-2016, 10:39

Hi all

Just to know, me as potential buyer of a sailboat (in europe) that has to pay about 5-7-10% plus vat as brokerage fee...
Does the seller have to pay the same fee if the broker can sell his boat?

I read everywhere (that in USA, i guess) that you should talk to the broker, he is supposed to ask you many question and find your ideal boat, while right now, after have seen about 15 boat, from the worst to the best broker (from who read the sailboat's specs, without have any idea of what a boat is to one who even found a boat quite good for me between his own list), they would be supposed to get payed for uploading an advertise on internet?...Like real estate....
You search for hours/days, they make you see 3 times the boat, that's the paper , it's 10.000 euro plus 22% vat thanks.

Thanks for the answer
Stefano

**John_Trusty** · 08-02-2016, 11:20

I'm interested if the "broker" model will survive the internet. Remember when you would book travel through a local office called a "travel agent" who would talk to you about a trip and then book it on the computer. Most of them are out of business now (like secretarial agencies) because information processing (searching a database and entering a name and credit card number) are not value added anymore. I think that the broker fits in this model. If I search for a boat (here or other sites), and call a number to arrange a sea trial and survey, what do I need to pay someone else for. If the buyer used a broker to photograph it and list it on his web site, that's his contract.

In the end, every area is unique, and what you save in one cost gets taken from you in another (VAT is high in Europe, but you get healthcare, for example).

hellosailor · 08-02-2016, 12:54

the fee will depend on who the broker is working for. In the US, it is normally a "seller's broker" who has contracted with the seller to sell his boat, and the seller pays him.

It is possible for you, as a buyer, to contract with a broker as a "buyer's broker" in which case he will try to find you a boat, and under the terms of your contract with him, you will pay him a brokerage fee--regardless of whether there is a selling broker with a separate obligation to the boat's owner.

I would expect you to have those same options in the EU. The contract that you sign will govern who and what you have to pay, for brokerage fees or other obligations.

VAT is a whole other complication, depending on what has been paid, where the boat is transferred, what the nationality of the title will be.

stefano_ita · 08-02-2016, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Trusty

I'm interested if the "broker" model will survive the internet. Remember when you would book travel through a local office called a "travel agent" who would talk to you about a trip and then book it on the computer. Most of them are out of business now (like secretarial agencies) because information processing (searching a database and entering a name and credit card number) are not value added anymore. I think that the broker fits in this model. If I search for a boat (here or other sites), and call a number to arrange a sea trial and survey, what do I need to pay someone else for. If the buyer used a broker to photograph it and list it on his web site, that's his contract.

In the end, every area is unique, and what you save in one cost gets taken from you in another (VAT is high in Europe, but you get healthcare, for example).

In fact, I personally used MY time, ecc to search for a boat.

It would be ok if i call a broker and say" i want this kind of boat, max price, lenght, ecc let me know when you found it, i will give you the 7% of the boat price"

I do not do nothing, it's ok i will pay you to make me this service.

But if I searched for you and your boat...I worked, while you did nothing except post an ads why should i pay you?

Especially why do people get to a broker to sell their boat? For which are not advertised by the owner.

Someone knows if the seller must pay the broker if the boat is sold ? Both america or europe or wherelse...

hellosailor · 08-02-2016, 14:21

"...I worked, while you did nothing except post an ads why should i pay you? "
Because, old man, if the broker hadn't taken the time, trouble, and expertise to post many ads in many places, you wouldn't have seen any ad at all. And that's why he is entitled to a fee, for enabling your transaction.

Any idiot owner can hang a "for sale" sign on the railing. See how many folks will stumble across that one sign, as opposed to a dozen good listings.

And a really good broker will be able to answer a phone during business hours, and probably evenings and weekends, and tell you "Those pictures were taken last week...last year...are of the sistership before she sank...and no, really, there are no soft spots in the deck and no rats in the bilge" before you waste your time and money going a thousand miles to see a boat.

Some are worth two dollars, some are worth two thousand. No, wait, that's another profession I'm thinking of.(G)

stefano_ita · 08-02-2016, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"...I worked, while you did nothing except post an ads why should i pay you? "
Because, old man, if the broker hadn't taken the time, trouble, and expertise to post many ads in many places, you wouldn't have seen any ad at all. And that's why he is entitled to a fee, for enabling your transaction.

Any idiot owner can hang a "for sale" sign on the railing. See how many folks will stumble across that one sign, as opposed to a dozen good listings.

And a really good broker will be able to answer a phone during business hours, and probably evenings and weekends, and tell you "Those pictures were taken last week...last year...are of the sistership before she sank...and no, really, there are no soft spots in the deck and no rats in the bilge" before you waste your time and money going a thousand miles to see a boat.

Some are worth two dollars, some are worth two thousand. No, wait, that's another profession I'm thinking of.(G)

Ok but what about sailboatlisting, craiglist, ecc...

There is not only yachtworld.com...

I understand if a 78 years old want to sell the boat and has 0 experience , i would be the first to go to a broker...

The professionality is in judge here...I had broker who answered email professionaly in 20 minutes and others take weeks to know how old are the sails...

Get the last one LOL

Stef

hellosailor · 08-02-2016, 15:25

Craigslist?
You mean, where you can quickly dispose of your ex's hated toy before they know about it? And get paid with a stack of freshly printed hundred dollar bills, that seem to upset your bank to no end? (G)

Until the buyer takes a test drives and somehow, just forgets to come back?

In theory the broker is also bonded and licensed and that's possibly more reliable than a back alley deal. In theory.(G)

"Ready to cruise around the world!" Sure, as deck cargo on a tramp steamer. Like horse racing, "You pays your money, you takes your chances." Either way.

stefano_ita · 08-02-2016, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Craigslist?
You mean, where you can quickly dispose of your ex's hated toy before they know about it? And get paid with a stack of freshly printed hundred dollar bills, that seem to upset your bank to no end? (G)

Until the buyer takes a test drives and somehow, just forgets to come back?

In theory the broker is also bonded and licensed and that's possibly more reliable than a back alley deal. In theory.(G)

"Ready to cruise around the world!" Sure, as deck cargo on a tramp steamer. Like horse racing, "You pays your money, you takes your chances." Either way.

Well if i'm now wrong is like ebay or so what...there are thousand of this website around the world...for example in italy subito.it, i visited 5 boat from it on sale from the owner.

Too in italy the broken need to be licensed and yes IN THEORY he would have some legal responsability in the process of buying, but at the end its just your own business...even lawyer, legal rapresentative or relative work always have 0 responsability, even people lose home and so on...imagine for a boat. And image if the same broker should be even your trusted surveyor ahahahahaha it make's me laught...

I'm not against broke who profesionally work as broker and, endeed, they meritate to be payed. I'm talking about the second category (let's say 90% of the broker outside here).

And let's be honest. A owner can show you and explain about his boat about everything...he knows it like his pocket, if i have to prostitute myself to the broker that i really want to know seriously about the boat, and show my real interest (not a time loser) just to talk to the owner and ask something more than a 20 minutes visit...

Just my point of view.

What about a seatrial?
I have owner who offered me right at the first visit, to see the boat, to test it (and i honestly declined the offer as the boat was not ok for me due interior condition) and other broker who wanted a deposit as shown of real interest and then maybe a 2 hour sea trial...

monte · 08-02-2016, 16:42

Stefano, as you mentioned you have seen 15 boats to date with brokers. Each of those appointments take time. The actual time spent viewing the boat, emails and calls prior and after etc. so let's say each viewing and related calls and emails takes 3 hrs of the brokers time, probably closer to 4 since its in Italy and wine, pizza and traffic are involved. Also let's say the broker needs to make €2000/week to feed his wife and bambinos and drive a scooter nice enough to present a decent image to his customers, and another €3000 per week to cover utilities, insurance, office rental, advertising etc. So every second week poor old Gian Luka needs to sell a €100,000 boat just to cover expenses and viewing 15 boats just cost €7,500. Also note that for every boat sold the broker may have shown it to 20 or more prospective buyers. In that case the bambinos might have to share a pizza

Occasionally the broker might have a win, listing a boat for €200K and selling it be next week. Those wins offset the losses. The losses are in incurred by the time wasted on tyre kickers (customers without the funds or incentives to buy) which far outweigh the serious buyers. For the % of sale price system to change we would need to have a user pays system similar to lawyers, where the buyer pays the brokers costs (€40/10 minute phone call, €40/ email etc) but until that time (not likely to ever happen ) we are stuck with this method.
Some brokers are charging for viewings and most would charge for seat trials IF they even allow it before contract and survey. Most brokers soon figure out who the tyre kickers are and are less enthusiastic about wasting their time with emails and phone calls about how old the sails are or how much the insurance is or did this model ever have osmosis etc etc.

stefano_ita · 08-02-2016, 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by monte

Stefano, as you mentioned you have seen 15 boats to date with brokers. Each of those appointments take time. The actual time spent viewing the boat, emails and calls prior and after etc. so let's say each viewing and related calls and emails takes 3 hrs of the brokers time, probably closer to 4 since its in Italy and wine, pizza and traffic are involved. Also let's say the broker needs to make €2000/week to feed his wife and bambinos and drive a scooter nice enough to present a decent image to his customers, and another €3000 per week to cover utilities, insurance, office rental, advertising etc. So every second week poor old Gian Luka needs to sell a €100,000 boat just to cover expenses and viewing 15 boats just cost €7,500. Also note that for every boat sold the broker may have shown it to 20 or more prospective buyers. In that case the bambinos might have to share a pizza

Occasionally the broker might have a win, listing a boat for €200K and selling it be next week. Those wins offset the losses. The losses are in incurred by the time wasted on tyre kickers (customers without the funds or incentives to buy) which far outweigh the serious buyers. For the % of sale price system to change we would need to have a user pays system similar to lawyers, where the buyer pays the brokers costs (€40/10 minute phone call, €40/ email etc) but until that time (not likely to ever happen ) we are stuck with this method.
Some brokers are charging for viewings and most would charge for seat trials IF they even allow it before contract and survey. Most brokers soon figure out who the tyre kickers are and are less enthusiastic about wasting their time with emails and phone calls about how old the sails are or how much the insurance is or did this model ever have osmosis etc etc.

Yes, let's say about 5 private owner, 5 with broker and 3 with a broker that seated with his silk scarf in the office called a mechanic (very humble and kindly) showed me the 3 boats...Ok it was the first time seeing a boat, no complain, just 20 min visit and a tecnical specs and i can be full satisfied as first visit. I'm talking when things is getting serious, when you want/ need to talk to the owner for 3 hour, to try everything, before be sure that is the right boat for you, and then go on with professional survey...

LOL Take your price of living expense in italy and get it a quarter or a fifht of it

I clearly understand how much is frustating for someone go, waste money time, ecc just for nothing...
Just before spend 1000 euro and more in travel around europe, i just would like to know if with the 60-70k there are new sails or it means add immediatly 15k to the asked price for new sails, just to have an idea, it is my right (i guess)...I guess i'm not asking too much...not asking via email the % of relative humidity in hosmosis check done 5 years ago...i'm not so fool...

Stef

P.s. with all the respect for you/brokers/CF users not to criticize or offend anyone, just to understand the many and different point of view

avb3 · 08-02-2016, 17:49

Don't forget our classified here on Cruisers Forum. It's free, just make sure you follow all the guidelines in the sticky at the top of that forum.

stefano_ita · 09-02-2016, 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by avb3

Don't forget our classified here on Cruisers Forum. It's free, just make sure you follow all the guidelines in the sticky at the top of that forum.

??

Did i miss something, looking for it on the forum but i can't find.

What does classified means? (above classification...

)
Do you have a link please?

Thanks
Stefano

avb3 · 09-02-2016, 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by stefano_ita

??

Did i miss something, looking for it on the forum but i can't find.

What does classified means? (above classification...

)
Do you have a link please?

Thanks
Stefano

Here are all our classifieds:

Cruising Business & Commerce - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

And just the Boat for Sale/Wanted section:

Boats For Sale and Wanted - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

hellosailor · 09-02-2016, 10:04

"Classifieds" is the short form of "Classified Advertising" which may be a US-only phrase. It comes from our newspapers, which carry "display ads" and "classified ads". A "display ad" is whatever the advertiser wants to run in a set space, perhaps a full page, perhaps three column-inches.
Classified ads are normally available only one way. You buy "lines" or "words" and pay for every word or every line of type that is set, only one column wide, in a listing of similar ads. Traditionally they were meant to be cheap and the ads were set in "flyspeck" type, the smallest size the newspaper had, typically 5 points (5/72 of an inch) tall.

Incidentally, some publications count one word as just that--one word, regardless of length. Western Union, and the telegraph industry, standardized that to the "Western Union Word" which is five characters plus one space, six characters in all, and traveling businessmen adopted their own cryptic abbreviations to reduce the length of their messages in order to pay for fewer "words". The publishing industry counts both ways. Word processing word counter utilities often count "words" but can often also be set to count characters, which can be divided out by 6 again.

Today they are often somewhat fancier, offering bold headings and small graphics at extra cost, among other features. But still oriented as "text" ads, as opposed to display ads.