Boat Brokerage Fee

[stefano_ita]

Just today:

I drove my car for 10 hours to visit a sailboat...the "broker" after the visit of the perfect condition boat( a 2008 boat...) with full bilge of water and URINE, smelling like the hell, water so high that the engine's oil pan was almost half submerged...

After the usually 30 minutes visit, we came back to the office, he asked me if i want to make an offer, i declined, asked if he had similar boat to visit, he told me "yes, but i don't have the key, the owner has it, i thought you wanted to buy this one"...

Should i charge him for 10 hours driving plus fuel ? All plus VAT obviously.

From that time for every broker that i get in touch after the boat that i'm interested in it, i ask directly, tell me all the similar boat in your inventory.

At this point a question come to my mind:

-Am i an idiot who is working as broker of myself (and helping other's brokers with sever mental issue) knowing that i will have to pay them for their...mh....hm......job.....work...?

[monte]

Long drive in Italy stefano. Where was the boat located?

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by monte

Long drive in Italy stefano. Where was the boat located?

After Venice, north adriatic seas...about 400 km go and 400 come back...

P.S. i forgot the 50 euro for highway tool...

[rourkeh]

The "yacht broker" business model is still alive and well because the brokers control all the good advertising sites on the internet. It used to be a system called BUC which was like the MLS in real-estate and was only available to registered brokers, now "YachtWorld" has replaced that and as an individual you cannot place your boat listing on there unless you are a broker and have an account.
As with any business there are good and bad people involved. A good broker is worth every dollar and a bad broker is just a pain in the ass.
When you list your boat for sale with a broker in North America you usually agree to pay a 10% fee from the proceeds of the sale, the buyer pays nothing. The commission split works just like in real-estate where the buying broker/company split 5% and the selling broker/company split 5%. It seems I have read a lot of negative posts here about brokers, but that reflects the fact that the majority of boat owners on this site have vessels worth less than $250,000 and all brokers have to do the same amount of work to list and sell a boat for $100,000 as they do to sell one for $2.5 million. Sometimes it can be more work to sell the cheaper boat. So it is not surprising that yacht brokers aren't killing themselves to make a few thousand dollars at the end of a long and sometimes difficult task.
I worked in the business for a lot of years and had thousands of very happy clients, I personally stayed away from listings of less than $500,000 as I found that there was no way to make any real money working with buyers or sellers of $65,000 boats. You get what you pay for in everything.

[stefano_ita]

After directly contacted the owner of a boat, (5 same advise, 4 broker and 1 private, EXACTLY the same photos and description...copy paste..)He confirmed me that he pays 5% if the broker will sell his boat, and me the other 5% for buying it..

[hellosailor]

"He confirmed me that he pays 5% if the broker will sell his boat, and me the other 5% for buying it.."
Very funny. He may WANT you to pay the other 5% of the broker's fee, and he may have contracted with the broker to ensure that, but until and unless you sign a contract or agree to pay the broker anything...that's not your problem. It is your option to make that deal or not, or let him absorb the entire fee, unless you enter a legal relationship requiring otherwise.


You can always say "OK, I pay him an extra 5% that you didn't advertise, so you will take that same 5% off the sale price of the boat to me, yes?"

[stefano_ita]

Yes, in theory..

Case 1: I found the boat from the private owner 100k and 100 k is..

2 I found the same boat on a brokerage site, is (if the owner is honest) 100k + 5k (5%)+ 22% vat= i will pay in total the boat 106k (and the owner will get 94k as 100-(5%+ vat))

In theory in italy if i contacted the broker first, than we meet with the owner and i buy the boat, the broker will ask me to pay his fee, as he has the proof of the contact (email, phone call) and sometimes the private ownwer write a contract where is written that they CAN'T sell their boat without the help of the choosen broker, even they found by himself the buyer...it's a limitation but its 99% of the time advertised as " for a safe buy, for a good price sale, ecc..." and you are fck out...

IN THEORY as I did NOT asked his service but i only contacted him for make me get in touch with the owner, i would not have to give nothing to him, but at the time of the first offer he will provide the document with his name, his broker number, ecc...if you want that boat that are the rules...sometimes the broker keep with him the boat's documents, to be sure the seller could never sell the boat without paying his fee, the same for the buyer...otherwise mafia...but that's another discussion.......

[hellosailor]

I hear what you are saying, but unless Italian law was the most unusual and overbearing on the planet, you are still not obligated to pay the broker. The owner, the seller, is not allowed to sell it unless someone pays the broker--but the seller can't require that YOU pay it, even though he is required to see that someone pays it to the broker. That's all I'm saying. Whether the seller makes an accommodation in his price, or asks you for "extra" for the broker, it can work out to the same price in the end, or not. You can always tell the owner "Look, you made the promise that someone would pay him a total of 10%, that's your business, here's what I am willing to pay, no matter who gets what percent of it."


If the seller has to eat that 5% in order to make the sale...that's his problem.

[barnakiel]

Where I live each party that insists on a broker pays give and take 6% to their broker. But we normally buy small boats say to around USD 50k or thereabouts without brokers. You go have a look test sail and buy or not.

b.

[stefano_ita]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I hear what you are saying, but unless Italian law was the most unusual and overbearing on the planet, you are still not obligated to pay the broker. The owner, the seller, is not allowed to sell it unless someone pays the broker--but the seller can't require that YOU pay it, even though he is required to see that someone pays it to the broker. That's all I'm saying. Whether the seller makes an accommodation in his price, or asks you for "extra" for the broker, it can work out to the same price in the end, or not. You can always tell the owner "Look, you made the promise that someone would pay him a total of 10%, that's your business, here's what I am willing to pay, no matter who gets what percent of it."


If the seller has to eat that 5% in order to make the sale...that's his problem.

Unlucky it is...

In theory you are right, in case the owner still has the document of the boat, he could in theory sell the boat privately and stop.

But when buying by broker the broker's get the 5% invoice to the seller and a 5% invoice to the buyer.If you don't pay then it tourn out to get a lawsuit, thatnmaybe in the next 10/15 years some judge will finish the cause...but for that 10 years you will pay 50k your lawyer, go to courthouse every 6 month, and so on...hoping that you will win the cause

I know it's a strange country...especially when speaking about law, it sound like someone from "above" is looking to make us fail....

[stefano_ita]

Little OT
A old man, that has a legally weapon in his house, one night burglass were entered in his garden trying to open the front door house, he shooted in the air, the burglass run away, the police take ALL his gun for 1 years as preventive measure, as it was an unsafer use of the gun to shot in the air. Everybody, on all the newspaper talked about it, the burglass came back some day later, robbed them, tied them for an intire night, stealed everything WITH a gun...still free, not yet found..and this happens every day in italy..we are not protected by police, neither you can protect by yourself, otherwise is your problem.

Last one: a tobacconist at the end of the day 2 robbers with toy weapons (without red cap, all black paint) entered and wanted the money, ecc he take out his legally declared gun, shooted to one, as it looks they were about to shoot him, he killed him, after 3 courthouse judje,ecc the final state was: excessive defence: 10 years of jail and give 350.000 euro to the family of the killed burglass...In italy first you get shot, you die, than it's your right defend yourself, but not too much, you could harm a good gypsy brass-stealer with a wonderfull family and already get to jail 10 times before being 18 years old...we should invent the "excessive robbery" law...but i doesn't exist. Far West is coming...People are full, can't resist more...
People who sell project of home, get the offer and then disappeard, get caught by police, the money disappeard, after a day he's free, and who gavehim maybe a 50k offer for the new home under construction, has killed himself because out of money (really happens, several times)

And if you are a ice cream sellers and you OFFER FOR FREE an ice cream to an old you friend, do not get invoce (as offer)financial police, come throug, fined you 3 days closed shop, 5000 euro fined,spent another 10k in lawyer, problem and problem again. He should have gave a invoice of 0 euro to his old friend, otherwise is tax evasion if you have a shop, give something, even for free to someone without the invoice.

Or business man that has to pay 84k of taxes a year but in that year he only earned 70k? (in italy you have to pay the years before what is expected you will earn the next year, and it must be always positive, you can't earn less than the actual year)

A welder machine maker, failed and killed himself (about 5 years ago) for this: chinise welding machine 60 euro, his italian made one 250 euro, the financial police accused him to hide money (because the next years his income was decreasing), he failed, loose his factory, loose also his home, now i guess he's living on a rented flat with his family, working just under the table, because financial police is always looking for "their" money...This after paying over 60% of taxes on his income for over 30 years of working...and his 20 employee get unoccupied...

And migrants complain, burn car, ecc, bebcause they don't have WI-FI in they hospitality (mafia's 3 stars hotel with swimming pool, payed buy us 30 euro a day, 900 euro a month, for every migrants)

Then mafia ,everywhere, millions of euros of tax payers disappearing, and no one complain...(italian governament IS mafia, is driven by it) nuclear waste under the ground, toxic waste, poisoned water spring, poisoned fruit and vegetables, polluting industry (meaning relasing toxic gas, people around that area has 50x times more cancer and tumor than thhe average country,emission thousands time above the european emission limit, governament solution: stop all the car for a day in the center of the city, so the pullution will decrease....) but it's ok..money-mafia-governament. It's all ok.

All what i wrote up on there is really happenede or is case that is happening..

Excuse me for the small ot but i guess eveverybody must know what is going on.
Italy WAS one of the greates country of world, i would have been very proud of being italian, but some times ago...I'm just sorry to do not has borned 30 years ago before when i'm really borned, and lived it...Boat i'm coming...


P.S. not not offend no one, ecc...