Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-08-2016, 03:42   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5
Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Good day everyone,



Two years ago my boat was hit during a (normal) squall by a catamaran that drifted together with mooringbouys and blocks onto her and hit her for about 45 minutes in which time considerable damage was done. Luckily (I thought) the catamaran was insured at P, just like I am (but I have only liability insurance). At first it seemed they would pay for the damaged caused, but then it turned around and P said the owner of the catamaran had no liability for the damage his boat caused, because he had done everything reasonable to prevent this collision. Now, I disagree with this, since the catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, most of the others are connected with a big chain to each other, although it was one of the biggest and most resistance receiving boats in the field. On top of that, the owner was not on board during the collision, so he could not prevent the damage (I was not there either by the way, but my boat stayed in place) and he brought an anchor out sideways, to prevent his boat (probably because the space was to small) from swinging onto the boat next to him, this caused even more force on the mooringblocks, since the ship could not put her head in the wind when the squall came.




Now, I am two years further, trying to make my point to the insurance, that they cannot just ignore me (they don't reply relating to the content of my letters). Luckily the EU has an arrangement for people who can not afford an own lawyer abroad. So I had an Austrian lawyer assigned to my case. This lawyer though, knows nothing about laws of shipping and see and does not want to read himself into this. So his job is only to bring the case to the court (this is not allowed in Austria to do by yourself when the damage is over 10.000 euro's) This means I need to get evidence and appropriate law numbers together myself and then hand him over that information, which he will put in the lawsuit (is that the proper word for it? sorry for my English).




So, I was hoping there might be someone here that could provide me with the proper lawnumbers, that also count in Austria.The best would be for free, but if you have something really good I could pay you a little.

I am especially looking for laws that state what is exactly the content of 'fault of the ship' and a law that states that it is not allowed to anchor when you are at a mooring.




Thanks for reading and let me know what you think please,




all the best,




Sanne
__________________

__________________
Zoute Sanne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 03:58   #2
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 19,748
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

I would say that whoever owns/rents out the moorings is liable.. if they assigned that mooring to the Catamaran they would be at fault for putting an oversized boat on an inadequate mooring.
Read your contract and see if you signed away any rights to damage when you hired your mooring.
Its a bit like damage in car parks.. insurance can knock you back.. should they choose.. and the car park owners state.. you use our facility at your own risk.
Catch 22
__________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Click on de Pic 4 de Site^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 04:11   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Boatman61,

Thanks for your reply.
Indeed the sailingclub says not to be liable for any damage caused by faulty moorings. But I think that would mean that would be when my mooring moved and my ship ended up somewhere on the beach...
Now this means, that the owner of the catamaran is responsible for his mooring. Maybe even more because the sailingclub has mentioned their non liability for it. That is also why I swim down before we left, to check out my own mooring, I feel and am responsible to make sure my boat is moored well and she was.
So I do not think this takes away the responsibility from the owner of the catamaran, it at most places it from the sailing club into his hands.
Don't you think so?

Best regards,
Sanne
__________________
Zoute Sanne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 04:20   #4
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 30,333
Images: 240
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Sanne.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 04:27   #5
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 19,748
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

As I said.. its a Catch 22.. had you been on your own ground tackle you would have had a claim.. but being on someone else's absolves the Insurance Co of any liability..
Sucks I know.. part of me hopes your successful as it would set a precedent for future incidents for other owners in similar incidents.. but a larger part feels your flogging a dead horse..
By the way.. Welcome to CF..
__________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Click on de Pic 4 de Site^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 04:34   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 54
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

I would suggest bringing the suit against the boat owner and have him sweat it out with his insurance co.
Irrelevant if he is insured or not. Go after him and his boat and try to get a judgement.
__________________
lars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 05:03   #7
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 524
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lars View Post
I would suggest bringing the suit against the boat owner and have him sweat it out with his insurance co.
Irrelevant if he is insured or not. Go after him and his boat and try to get a judgement.
When it comes to International "shipping law", I'm sorry to say that you will be liable for the damages to your own boat if not the owner of the other boat has done something offence illegal when the damages to your boat was done. Such damages will only be covered by your own insurance if liable under your insurance policy.

Do not spend a single cent on this case, you will loose every cent spent.
__________________
petter5 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 05:22   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Boat: Shopping
Posts: 363
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

I would sue the catamaran owner, his (her) insurance company, and the club. The waivers of liabilty in the club's agreement may or may not be enforceable.

You are going to need an expert to provide testimony that the catamaran acted negligently by putting out an anchor while on a mooring. And that the mooring was undersized for the catamaran.

This reminds of the risk in having only liability insurance.
__________________
Cottontop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 05:50   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: English Harbour, Antigua
Posts: 439
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Sanne,

you might want to contact Andreas (Scharbatke) from Boote & Recht – RA Scharbatke in Münster | Boote–Yachten–Wassersport

Regards,

Carsten
__________________
CarstenWL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 08:15   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

I have no idea if this info will help. I know in the states I have used private adjusters and they have been god sends when dealing with insurance companies in regards to real estate claims. Do not know if there are such people or companies in the EU, Austria, ect that would specialize in marine insurance claims. But they cost you nothing as they work on a percentage of the recovery. They have made me thousands. Would probably be worth a little research. Would be interested in knowing if anyone is out there. Good luck.
__________________
Plus Ten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 08:30   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Halmatic 30
Posts: 338
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

You have nothing to do with the Insurance of the Boat Owner. The Owner is liable for the damage his Boat has caused.


He has to talk to his Insurance Company to accept the claim and they can trying to recover the claim from the Owners of the Mooring. If there is no cover for the incident, the Owner has to pay for your damage.


Here in the Netherlands there is however an escape if the weather conditions are very extreme. Perhaps it is important to get the weather conditions at the date and time of the collision to prove that the weather conditions were not extreme.


Bram
__________________
verkerkbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 08:51   #12
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 46
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoute Sanne View Post
Good day everyone,



Two years ago my boat was hit during a (normal) squall by a catamaran that drifted together with mooringbouys and blocks onto her and hit her for about 45 minutes in which time considerable damage was done. Luckily (I thought) the catamaran was insured at P, just like I am (but I have only liability insurance). At first it seemed they would pay for the damaged caused, but then it turned around and P said the owner of the catamaran had no liability for the damage his boat caused, because he had done everything reasonable to prevent this collision. Now, I disagree with this, since the catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, most of the others are connected with a big chain to each other, although it was one of the biggest and most resistance receiving boats in the field. On top of that, the owner was not on board during the collision, so he could not prevent the damage (I was not there either by the way, but my boat stayed in place) and he brought an anchor out sideways, to prevent his boat (probably because the space was to small) from swinging onto the boat next to him, this caused even more force on the mooringblocks, since the ship could not put her head in the wind when the squall came.




Now, I am two years further, trying to make my point to the insurance, that they cannot just ignore me (they don't reply relating to the content of my letters). Luckily the EU has an arrangement for people who can not afford an own lawyer abroad. So I had an Austrian lawyer assigned to my case. This lawyer though, knows nothing about laws of shipping and see and does not want to read himself into this. So his job is only to bring the case to the court (this is not allowed in Austria to do by yourself when the damage is over 10.000 euro's) This means I need to get evidence and appropriate law numbers together myself and then hand him over that information, which he will put in the lawsuit (is that the proper word for it? sorry for my English).




So, I was hoping there might be someone here that could provide me with the proper lawnumbers, that also count in Austria.The best would be for free, but if you have something really good I could pay you a little.

I am especially looking for laws that state what is exactly the content of 'fault of the ship' and a law that states that it is not allowed to anchor when you are at a mooring.




Thanks for reading and let me know what you think please,




all the best,




Sanne
Dear Zoute Sanne,

Your strong points are the Catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, the Owners was not onboard and so on.......

Your Austrian Lawyer is absolutely right! In Maritime Laws clearly stated that any claims should be file within 12 months from the date of occurred. In this case, it was time barred.

Please, forget all about it and do not spend and waste your precious time on this case. Just forget about it! You will loose the case anyway......

Thanks and regards,

Elise.
__________________
helise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 08:57   #13
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Norway
Posts: 524
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

If the damage are related to Austrian LAW, I have no clue about it so under Austrian LAW, I have no Options.
On the other hand, if this is under international LAW as used in international shipping, you will have to have an insurance that covers all damages to your boat/ship whenever the damages is caused by you self or a second or third party. There is no such as a responsibility to pay for damages you make on other vessels in international LAW. The only exception is if the part who is causing the damage is found guilty in a court for causing the damage incautious of first degree or worse,,,

Since this is the opposite LAW of what most people has learnt to know from car and home insurance, for most people, it seems wrong and strange. You will have to search google for " H&M insurance " and " P&I" insurance to understand how international LAW organizes responsibilities for damages.

Been there, done that,,,,,
__________________
petter5 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 11:46   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 453
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by helise View Post
Dear Zoute Sanne,

Your strong points are the Catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, the Owners was not onboard and so on.......

Your Austrian Lawyer is absolutely right! In Maritime Laws clearly stated that any claims should be file within 12 months from the date of occurred. In this case, it was time barred.

Please, forget all about it and do not spend and waste your precious time on this case. Just forget about it! You will loose the case anyway......

Thanks and regards,

Elise.
Yes, in the US we call it ''statue of limitations''. You need to find out how long the time limit is in your location. I also doubt if it is over 2 years. Ask a lawyer in Austria. You always need to jump right on these things.
__________________
captlloyd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2016, 12:53   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Australia
Boat: Swanson
Posts: 49
Re: Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

In Australia are extremely strict rules for swing moorings.
Council aproval , precise location, permit who is qulified to set up mooring,
approved type for that location, grid and type relevant to size of the boat allowed
to be moored, annual inspection. Used to be port authority look after moorings, but currently local councils have full control, Should be easy to find out all relevant info,
one visit to council, and you have enoug to fill for damages regardless of when happened.

o
__________________

__________________
Tikka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
collision, lease

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat sinks after collision with whale near Guaymas autumnbreeze27 General Sailing Forum 112 07-07-2016 09:43
Crew Available: Austrian cook/hostess is looking for a job deepbluesea. Crew Archives 0 08-07-2014 03:40
Leopard 46: Leopard 46 sinks after collision Overlord Robertson & Caine 83 01-04-2013 20:33
Buying an Austrian Liveaboard in Sudan tarigko Boat Ownership & Making a Living 1 24-01-2012 03:29
Greetings from the Austrian Alps GreyRaven Meets & Greets 18 20-11-2007 16:10


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.