Austrian and international law after collision, please help!

[Zoute Sanne]

Good day everyone,



Two years ago my boat was hit during a (normal) squall by a catamaran that drifted together with mooringbouys and blocks onto her and hit her for about 45 minutes in which time considerable damage was done. Luckily (I thought) the catamaran was insured at P, just like I am (but I have only liability insurance). At first it seemed they would pay for the damaged caused, but then it turned around and P said the owner of the catamaran had no liability for the damage his boat caused, because he had done everything reasonable to prevent this collision. Now, I disagree with this, since the catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, most of the others are connected with a big chain to each other, although it was one of the biggest and most resistance receiving boats in the field. On top of that, the owner was not on board during the collision, so he could not prevent the damage (I was not there either by the way, but my boat stayed in place) and he brought an anchor out sideways, to prevent his boat (probably because the space was to small) from swinging onto the boat next to him, this caused even more force on the mooringblocks, since the ship could not put her head in the wind when the squall came.




Now, I am two years further, trying to make my point to the insurance, that they cannot just ignore me (they don't reply relating to the content of my letters). Luckily the EU has an arrangement for people who can not afford an own lawyer abroad. So I had an Austrian lawyer assigned to my case. This lawyer though, knows nothing about laws of shipping and see and does not want to read himself into this. So his job is only to bring the case to the court (this is not allowed in Austria to do by yourself when the damage is over 10.000 euro's) This means I need to get evidence and appropriate law numbers together myself and then hand him over that information, which he will put in the lawsuit (is that the proper word for it? sorry for my English).




So, I was hoping there might be someone here that could provide me with the proper lawnumbers, that also count in Austria.The best would be for free, but if you have something really good I could pay you a little.

I am especially looking for laws that state what is exactly the content of 'fault of the ship' and a law that states that it is not allowed to anchor when you are at a mooring.




Thanks for reading and let me know what you think please,




all the best,




Sanne

[boatman61]

I would say that whoever owns/rents out the moorings is liable.. if they assigned that mooring to the Catamaran they would be at fault for putting an oversized boat on an inadequate mooring.
Read your contract and see if you signed away any rights to damage when you hired your mooring.
Its a bit like damage in car parks.. insurance can knock you back.. should they choose.. and the car park owners state.. you use our facility at your own risk.
Catch 22

[Zoute Sanne]

Boatman61,

Thanks for your reply.
Indeed the sailingclub says not to be liable for any damage caused by faulty moorings. But I think that would mean that would be when my mooring moved and my ship ended up somewhere on the beach...
Now this means, that the owner of the catamaran is responsible for his mooring. Maybe even more because the sailingclub has mentioned their non liability for it. That is also why I swim down before we left, to check out my own mooring, I feel and am responsible to make sure my boat is moored well and she was.
So I do not think this takes away the responsibility from the owner of the catamaran, it at most places it from the sailing club into his hands.
Don't you think so?

Best regards,
Sanne

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Sanne.

[boatman61]

As I said.. its a Catch 22.. had you been on your own ground tackle you would have had a claim.. but being on someone else's absolves the Insurance Co of any liability..
Sucks I know.. part of me hopes your successful as it would set a precedent for future incidents for other owners in similar incidents.. but a larger part feels your flogging a dead horse..
By the way.. Welcome to CF..

[lars]

I would suggest bringing the suit against the boat owner and have him sweat it out with his insurance co.
Irrelevant if he is insured or not. Go after him and his boat and try to get a judgement.

[petter5]

Originally Posted by lars

I would suggest bringing the suit against the boat owner and have him sweat it out with his insurance co.
Irrelevant if he is insured or not. Go after him and his boat and try to get a judgement.

When it comes to International "shipping law", I'm sorry to say that you will be liable for the damages to your own boat if not the owner of the other boat has done something offence illegal when the damages to your boat was done. Such damages will only be covered by your own insurance if liable under your insurance policy.

Do not spend a single cent on this case, you will loose every cent spent.

[Cottontop]

I would sue the catamaran owner, his (her) insurance company, and the club. The waivers of liabilty in the club's agreement may or may not be enforceable.

You are going to need an expert to provide testimony that the catamaran acted negligently by putting out an anchor while on a mooring. And that the mooring was undersized for the catamaran.

This reminds of the risk in having only liability insurance.

[CarstenWL]

Sanne,

you might want to contact Andreas (Scharbatke) from Boote & Recht – RA Scharbatke in Münster | Boote–Yachten–Wassersport

Regards,

Carsten

[Plus Ten]

I have no idea if this info will help. I know in the states I have used private adjusters and they have been god sends when dealing with insurance companies in regards to real estate claims. Do not know if there are such people or companies in the EU, Austria, ect that would specialize in marine insurance claims. But they cost you nothing as they work on a percentage of the recovery. They have made me thousands. Would probably be worth a little research. Would be interested in knowing if anyone is out there. Good luck.

[verkerkbr]

You have nothing to do with the Insurance of the Boat Owner. The Owner is liable for the damage his Boat has caused.


He has to talk to his Insurance Company to accept the claim and they can trying to recover the claim from the Owners of the Mooring. If there is no cover for the incident, the Owner has to pay for your damage.


Here in the Netherlands there is however an escape if the weather conditions are very extreme. Perhaps it is important to get the weather conditions at the date and time of the collision to prove that the weather conditions were not extreme.


Bram

[helise]

Originally Posted by Zoute Sanne

Good day everyone,



Two years ago my boat was hit during a (normal) squall by a catamaran that drifted together with mooringbouys and blocks onto her and hit her for about 45 minutes in which time considerable damage was done. Luckily (I thought) the catamaran was insured at P, just like I am (but I have only liability insurance). At first it seemed they would pay for the damaged caused, but then it turned around and P said the owner of the catamaran had no liability for the damage his boat caused, because he had done everything reasonable to prevent this collision. Now, I disagree with this, since the catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, most of the others are connected with a big chain to each other, although it was one of the biggest and most resistance receiving boats in the field. On top of that, the owner was not on board during the collision, so he could not prevent the damage (I was not there either by the way, but my boat stayed in place) and he brought an anchor out sideways, to prevent his boat (probably because the space was to small) from swinging onto the boat next to him, this caused even more force on the mooringblocks, since the ship could not put her head in the wind when the squall came.




Now, I am two years further, trying to make my point to the insurance, that they cannot just ignore me (they don't reply relating to the content of my letters). Luckily the EU has an arrangement for people who can not afford an own lawyer abroad. So I had an Austrian lawyer assigned to my case. This lawyer though, knows nothing about laws of shipping and see and does not want to read himself into this. So his job is only to bring the case to the court (this is not allowed in Austria to do by yourself when the damage is over 10.000 euro's) This means I need to get evidence and appropriate law numbers together myself and then hand him over that information, which he will put in the lawsuit (is that the proper word for it? sorry for my English).




So, I was hoping there might be someone here that could provide me with the proper lawnumbers, that also count in Austria.The best would be for free, but if you have something really good I could pay you a little.

I am especially looking for laws that state what is exactly the content of 'fault of the ship' and a law that states that it is not allowed to anchor when you are at a mooring.




Thanks for reading and let me know what you think please,




all the best,




Sanne

Dear Zoute Sanne,

Your strong points are the Catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, the Owners was not onboard and so on.......

Your Austrian Lawyer is absolutely right! In Maritime Laws clearly stated that any claims should be file within 12 months from the date of occurred. In this case, it was time barred.

Please, forget all about it and do not spend and waste your precious time on this case. Just forget about it! You will loose the case anyway......

Thanks and regards,

Elise.

[petter5]

If the damage are related to Austrian LAW, I have no clue about it so under Austrian LAW, I have no Options.
On the other hand, if this is under international LAW as used in international shipping, you will have to have an insurance that covers all damages to your boat/ship whenever the damages is caused by you self or a second or third party. There is no such as a responsibility to pay for damages you make on other vessels in international LAW. The only exception is if the part who is causing the damage is found guilty in a court for causing the damage incautious of first degree or worse,,,

Since this is the opposite LAW of what most people has learnt to know from car and home insurance, for most people, it seems wrong and strange. You will have to search google for " H&M insurance " and " P&I" insurance to understand how international LAW organizes responsibilities for damages.

Been there, done that,,,,,

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by helise

Dear Zoute Sanne,

Your strong points are the Catamaran was on one of the lightest moorings, the Owners was not onboard and so on.......

Your Austrian Lawyer is absolutely right! In Maritime Laws clearly stated that any claims should be file within 12 months from the date of occurred. In this case, it was time barred.

Please, forget all about it and do not spend and waste your precious time on this case. Just forget about it! You will loose the case anyway......

Thanks and regards,

Elise.

Yes, in the US we call it ''statue of limitations''. You need to find out how long the time limit is in your location. I also doubt if it is over 2 years. Ask a lawyer in Austria. You always need to jump right on these things.

[Tikka]

In Australia are extremely strict rules for swing moorings.
Council aproval , precise location, permit who is qulified to set up mooring,
approved type for that location, grid and type relevant to size of the boat allowed
to be moored, annual inspection. Used to be port authority look after moorings, but currently local councils have full control, Should be easy to find out all relevant info,
one visit to council, and you have enoug to fill for damages regardless of when happened.

o