Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-04-2009, 20:53   #1
Registered User
 
eric the viking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Morro Bay
Boat: Alden Cutter
Posts: 24
Apathy

"Promoting apathy and lack of resistance to bullies is to empower them , and to aid and abet bullying."
These words ring true in so many ways. So, I pose the question. In a time where you can not anchor in Fla. You can't live aboard in California, and slip fees are increasing as much as 20% per year in some places, while property values have dropped by 40% and more in those same areas. What do we, as boaters do? How do we stop this madness? Do we simply say we can not control it, and move on until the next marina raises it's rates, or drop the hook in another anchorage until we are told to leave? What do we do? Who do we talk to? How can we, as boaters, protect our financial existance, and, in some cases, our ability to continue our lifestyle without starving?
__________________

__________________
Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal.
Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name.
eric the viking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 21:27   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,152
There is nothing we can do unless we own the land under where we float our boats. The only thing you can really do is to get rich and buy your own piece of wet property so nobody can tell you what you can and cannot do with your boat. Unfortunately, as the world becomes more crowded, the price of land increases. More demand, same supply....making it even more difficult to obtain a place of your own to keep your boat.

Most local government is broke or near broke...I'm sure it irks them to see a "rich" boater anchor their boat on "their" government property for free. Pay up or be gone!

My prediction, one day there will be far more boats than marinas to keep them. Plastic does not rot. I just spent the past two days going from the San Francisco Bay up to Sacramento and back. I saw at least a dozen and a half boats abandoned on the bank of the Sacramento River. I have never seen this before in all the years I have gone up and down this river. Sure its the economy but its also the cost of just storing a boat I am sure. Those with more money squeeze out those with less money. Eventually the boat becomes cost prohibitive to keep yet it is worth next to nothing because of all the other near worthless old plastic boats out there...so they get scuttled or dragged up on the river bank and abandoned.

Its not going to get any better.... those who can afford 20 dollars per foot per month are the only ones who are going to have large boats....the rest of us will have to settle for a large pickup truck for towing a 23 foot boat trailer and a home owners association that does not object to a 23 foot SeaRay parked in your driveway.

The environmentalists are certainly not going to allow the building of more marinas. Even if they were okay with more marinas, where would they be built?... all the prime waterfront land is already taken and relatively expensive at that, therefore doing nothing to increase the supply of places to keep your boat.

Its a situation of more people, same amount of land...squeezing out those who cannot afford the higher prices. I don't see a solution unless more marinas are built...and that's not going to happen.

If there was a publicly traded company that owns marinas I might consider buying some shares. Same supply, greater demand...higher profits!

I don't think its apathy so much as being realistic.
__________________

__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 21:35   #3
Registered User
 
eric the viking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Morro Bay
Boat: Alden Cutter
Posts: 24
Unfortunately, I am having a hard time having a more positive outlook on things than that,so I think you are right. Does anyone know if there are any PAC's to support the rights of boaters?
__________________
Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal.
Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name.
eric the viking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 21:47   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
maxingout's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Pierce, Phoenix
Boat: Privilege 39 Catamaran, Exit Only
Posts: 2,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric the viking View Post
What do we, as boaters do? How do we stop this madness? Do we simply say we can not control it, and move on until the next marina raises it's rates, or drop the hook in another anchorage until we are told to leave? What do we do? Who do we talk to? How can we, as boaters, protect our financial existance, and, in some cases, our ability to continue our lifestyle without starving?
My best advice is to immediately go cruising before this madness spreads to the rest of the world. Over-regulation and persecution of those who pursue the cruising lifestyle is an affliction of the industrialized world. When this virus spreads to developing countries, I shudder to think of what will happen.

Money is the driving force behind many of these changes. States and countries are hungry for revenue, and avaricious regulation extracts large amounts of revenue from sailors.

There is a chance that terrorism may ultimately deliver a crushing blow to the cruising lifestyle. In the name of security, governments may regulate cruisers the way that homeland security regulates travellers in airports. Imagine the hoops that you might have to jump through to enter and leave a country when national security is a major issue. Coastlines and seaports are a massive gaping hole in national security. Regulations are already in place in Australia where you have to give advance notice of your arrival on the mainland, and severe penalties apply to those who fail to send the requisite email several days in advance.

My advice is to go sailing as soon as you can, because things are going to get harder rather than easier, and the virus of regulation, revenue, and security is going to spread.
__________________
Dave -Sailing Vessel Exit Only

http://SailingUNI.com
http://maxingout.com
http://PositiveThinkingSailor.com
maxingout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 22:07   #5
Registered User
 
eric the viking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Morro Bay
Boat: Alden Cutter
Posts: 24
Sad, but true. Still, can we really run from this? It would seem to me that we are not a groupd of undesirables, but rather, a group that includes some of the world's elite. Of all the doctors. lawyers, and even a few local politicians who have identified themselves on this forum alone, there has to be someone in a postion of political power, who would talk about the process. Who might offer to be the voice of action.
__________________
Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal.
Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name.
eric the viking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 22:08   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Not to be rude but I guess it's, "welcome to a free market economy"

As long as people have money and places to store boats are fixed then prices will go up.

If you could convince 100,000 people or so to give up boating then I am pretty sure prices would fall.

As far as "boater's rights" go, I am not sure where they are defined, if at all.

The most (relatively) annoying answer I could give is similar to Dave's - Go where there are less people and you will find things are a lot cheaper.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 02:05   #7
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,592
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric the viking View Post
... Does anyone know if there are any PAC's to support the rights of boaters?
The Boat Owners Association of The United States says of itself:

“Since its founding in 1966, BoatUS has been the voice of recreational boat owners on Capitol Hill and before the federal agencies in Washington. With the strength of over 600,000 members behind us, our mission has been to fight unfair federal taxes, fees and regulations that single out boat owners and to work with state agencies to promote boating laws that make sense.”

Goto BoatUS Government Affairs: BoatUS.com: Government Affairs

BoatUS home: BoatUS.com: BoatUS Home Page
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 03:16   #8
Registered User
 
waterworldly's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York City/Bimini
Boat: 52' Irwin Ketch
Posts: 441
I don't think that boater's "rights" extend to demanding cheaper prices on dockspace. As to anchoring laws, understand that for years I lived in Miami. There is a huge free anchorage just outside Dinner Key Marina. It is full of street types living on boats that are just bearly floating. THAT is the anchoring problem, BUT, when was the last time you told someone in an anchorage to clean it up? Probably never, but THAT is the problem, so I suppose it is apathy, but before you put your energy in complaining to this government agency or that PAC, try getting together with local fellow anchorage residents and YOU start the ball rolling to get rid of the crap in your anchorage that is causing the majority of the problems.
Look at your own boat. Is it an eyesore? To you have crap all over the decks? Old lines and rags hanging from the lifelines? Teak that hasn't been touched in years, or paint that is more flat than gloss? If we all took pride in ownership, local residents wouldn't have a bitch now, would they? If we would open our mouths when the guy next to us, in a residential type anchorage, comes outside and strips naked for a shower, or worse, pisses of the side, that is a start, afterall, if you lived on land, would you want your next door neighbor living like this? Doubtfull. I really don't blame someone for not wanting that mess in their neighborhood. SO, if you want to have your boat a mess, move out to the country, or less populated areas.
__________________
waterworldly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 05:03   #9
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Quote:
Of all the doctors. lawyers, and even a few local politicians who have identified themselves on this forum alone, there has to be someone in a postion of political power, who would talk about the process. Who might offer to be the voice of action.
As noted by Gord BoatUS maintains the largest political action group in the US dedicated to boating issues and they have acted on many political issues. Send them all your money today! They will tell you in the newsletter when all your troubles are over.

The idea that people who boat have rights just because they boat seems pretty far out there. I don't see any of the problems you mention being about "boaters rights". There seems to be an idea because they don't paint lines on the water that it means there is a right to go everyplace and do anything. Boaters don't have extra rights. Competition means you have the right to lose fair and square and get stuck with the bill too.

Whining that someone else should do something is worse than apathy. It shows you are willing to do the very least you can and you are not going to wait for it. Boaters Rights is no means to any good end. In the overall scope of the world it matters almost a little more than not at all.

You can't make people get along because you want them to. You are on a small boat in a big ocean and a stranger everyplace you arrive. It's about making one friend at a time. It's a plan for action. You have all the rights you need. You could consider what you have to give instead. Making friends is a two way proposition.
__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 06:29   #10
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Isn't this a just a problem of overcrowding - too much demand for too few resources.

As the resources (coastline and "water space") is almost already "consumed" -as I understand it from the descriptions given - then the easist way to reduce demand is to charge more.

Welcome to the 21 st century
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 07:32   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Yes it is a supply and demand issue. However, that may be changing as the economy tanks and recreational and leisure activities are given up because people can't afford them and have to work more to survive if they can.

This unwinding will not happen immediately, but what will is that boats will be put up for sale as an asset to recoup cash from. This will (and is) driving prices down as there is little demand and lots of supply.

Then you have the issue raised below is that these things have to be put somewhere, whether they are used and maintained or simply stored and up for sale. The first move will be to "park" boats in the least expensive place whether the owners want to use them, store them or sell them. Demand for the higher priced "spaces" will drop.

In the beginning there will be little pressure to drop prices, probably because the business model for slip rentals has a enough profit in it to allow vacancies. Then the marinas will begin to look for a way to up the revenue streams which may involve dropping prices to fill vacancies, but this needs to exceed the revenue / profit from having vacancies. This will take some time to sort out.

In the colder climates expect to see more boats unlaunched, stored up for sale. In the warmer climates owners will look for the cheapest way to store their unused boats as they wait for a sale or better times.

In any case there will be some pressure to lower prices, but it will take time to be seen. And of course there are some who are doing fine in this crisis and they will not change their spending patterns. So you may see the smaller boats out of play and only the big boys in the game.
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 08:55   #12
Registered User
 
orion1's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Slidell, Louisiana, USA
Boat: William Atkin Cutter, 35'
Posts: 147
Images: 8
If Boat US was so powerful as a lobby, there would be no anchoring issue in Floriduh. They should have, by now, been able to direct this issue to the proper Federal court where it belongs. No state really has the right to regulate anchoring re: navigation in any fashion, at any time.
__________________
"Love My Country, Fear My Government"
orion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 09:45   #13
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Quote:
No state really has the right to regulate anchoring re: navigation in any fashion, at any time.
Ok so you want to argue local and state law in an International court go for it. It's easier to make things up than to solve real problems.
__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 09:51   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 105
The cruising community is simply not a large enough constituency or one with enough economic or political clout to be considered when it's time to carve up the spoils -- regionally or nationally.

The majority of the 600,000 BoatUS members are Happy Harries, tooling around some lake in Arkansas on a 18 footer with built in coolers. Their issues are not the ones you care about.

Unless you can figure out a way to make opposing the cruising community politically or economically painful, you're just eliminating to windward.

DGC
__________________
DavidGC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 10:11   #15
Back to the game

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Medellin, Colombia
Boat: Pearson Countess 44 wannabe
Posts: 545
From my "third world" point of view the entire mess is nothing but "America at work" it is happening within your country and it will soon be happening south of the border i.e. Bocas del Toro marina, Panama. It is just like exporting the McDonald's culture....thanks America we love you too
__________________

__________________
JC
Soft Air is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:14.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.