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Old 09-04-2009, 10:19   #31
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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
My ancestors found the thought of any human owning land ludicrous. We are only here for a short time and we are the stewards of the land/ocean for our children, and our children's children. We bear the onus to pass on respect for the oceans and land to our children so that they will pass it on to theirs. If you think you own a piece of land, try not paying your taxes for awhile.
Indeed. You can take it one step further and say that man can truly own nothing. That cell phone "you own" will be here long after you are dead. You jump to answer it when someone calls. You feel insecure when out of range.

Do you own it, or does it own you?

If we all lived life a little more simply the world would be a much better place.
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Old 10-04-2009, 09:29   #32
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Yes, the Native Americans, God Bless Them, had it right. We should view land and water as belonging to all, and owned by none, and only claim ownership of personal items. Imagine the result, little need for government and taxes, and little or no greed and jealousy.


Read about Henry Hudson's exploration of the Hudson River in the early 1600s and you will see that anchoring by transients was not acceptable to many locals then either. In fact the penalty for this anchoring trespass was for some was death or injury by bow and arrow. The Native Americans here didn't see Hudson as someone they would economically benefit from, but rather as a trespasser who might have negative consequence to them. Perhaps anchoring issues haven't changed as much as we might like to think over the past 400 years.

I see the same issues today. One only needs to look how locals perceive boats anchored in their area are of benefit of cost to them to understand the policies and practices they wish to enforce.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:53   #33
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The only way I know to get out of this mess is to go cruising or mabye move to a deserted island( if anyone wants to know how to have a nearly selfsufficent island just ask and I will explain, I have thought this out so I know what i'm talking about)
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:03   #34
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Boaters' rights

As others have mentioned, boaters have lots of options but few rights. Seven Seas Cruising Association (ssca.org) based in Ft. Lauderdal, Florida, does some lobbying for anchoring rights, etc. Unfortunately, there are so many different places where anchoring is becoming an issue that it is an almost impossible fight. It is especially critical for those of us out here to be good representatives of the others. That means keeping out boats looking reasonably well maintained, be respectful of those property owners and governments where we are still permitted, and contributing in some way to the communities where we spend time. Whenever possible let them know about the contributions that cruisers do make to their economy and community via surveys, etc. Good luck.
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:03   #35
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Little one ... at your age of 16, I'm sure that you've had lots of time to 'think' about being on a deserted island. And maybe even by having read a whole book, you believe that you are now very knowledgeable. But, I would think that until you've experienced enough life to understand more about the world and the people in it, it might be a bit premature to claim your 'expertise' ("I have thought this out so I know what i'm talking about") about this subject (or perhaps even others).

However, you have given me a nice little chuckle .. at my age that is a wonderful thing.

BO
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Old 11-04-2009, 21:53   #36
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Nautical62, I live on the water, in a very nice home, with our boat at our door step. The subdivision claims that we own the bottom. How stupid. I have no problem with real cruisers anchoring there as the bottom belongs to the navigator, not I.

I would not appreciate someone leaving an unattended vessel there for extended periods, but the right of navigation trumps all other rights under Admiralty Law, including ours, as we understand it.

The Indians certainly must have seen the intruder as an obvious threat. Over the years we have certainly proven them correct. The white man was not to be trusted.

The U.S. Government broke every treaty they ever entered into with the Native Americans, every single one!
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Old 11-04-2009, 22:31   #37
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Thumbs down

I guess I don't understand this "rights" thing, or maybe I just don't subscribe to it. It's kind of in the same category as "fair", as in "It's not fair, I have rights, too". I've always figured I have the rights the laws of the land I live in say I do, neither more, but often times less. Perhaps I've become a bit jaded by the inordinate amount of attention rights (particularly of and by Americans, sorry...) get and how little attention responsibility receives. And when that childish word "fair" is thrown in on top, maybe it's time for the rights and fair people to grow up and give the rest of the world some respite from their banter and whinging. Just what rights are boaters, as boaters, supposed to have? Beats me.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:39   #38
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Navigation Rights, under Admiratly Law, have been with us for a long long time, way before this rights thing of today became what it now is. Navigation rights are not rights at all they are Law. States are attempting to police, under state law, that which they have no legal right to be involved in, in order to tax those of us who seem to be too free.

The Jealousy and greed rule is alive and well here in America and probably many other places as well.
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Old 12-04-2009, 14:52   #39
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Orion: First, I never argued, Europeans were fair to Native Americans regarding treaties. My point is that many of the stereotypical images you (and others) have of Native Americans are simply not universally true. I don't think one can make universal statements about any group of people that consisted of many Nations over a great area over hundreds or thousands of years.

I think people everywhere have more in common that we think and often behave similarly under similar circumstances. That's my whole point. I certainly agree the Native Americans saw Hudson as a negative or possible threat with nothing to offer. I stated such in my first post. In fact, that's my point: People are not very tolerant of things they perceive as a threat or burden and offers them no potential benefit. This idea isn't something new. Maratime history and history in general are filled with examples which support this idea all over the world spanning centuries.

At times many Native Amerians also felt jealousy, greed and had no tolerence towards trespassers. To say all Native Americans were always welcoming to everyone simply isn't true. One can read the accounts of the first fur traders to see many examples of this. When Champlain and crew founded New France, they landed right in the middle of a war between the Iroquois League of Nations and the nations to the north and west such as the Algonquin. This war had been going on prior to the intrusion of Europeans. Getting caught in the opposing nations land often carried a death sentence for European or Native Americans. The tortures used rivaled those of the Spanish Inquisition. Their trading (boating) routes directly reflected which nations welcomed them on their lands and waters and which did not.

Later on in the American west, Potts (accompanying John Colter and killed in a boat by the way) and very famous Jed Smith are two more examples of people who met their deaths for basically trespassing on native lands. History is certainly filled with many examples of Native American nations who at times were welcoming or relatively peaceful as well. I say this as no disrespect to Native Americans. They were (and still are) people of varying nations who faced different circumstances and had different practices over time. Making assumptions about current situations and future actions based a false sweeping assumptions of the past serves no useful purpose.

Your point about not minding "real cruisers" anchored in front of your home, but not liking unattended boats only reinforces what I've closed with: One only needs to look how locals perceive boats anchored in their area are of benefit of cost to them to understand the policies and practices they wish to enforce.

Regarding your concerns about municipalities creating rules which are in direct contradiction with national or international law, and which are enforced with little challenge, I share your concerns.
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Old 12-04-2009, 16:08   #40
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Thank you Nautical for an interesting response. Native Americans initially were quite receptive. Over time they came to distrust, due to the invaders of their lands broken promises. Remember, Every treaty with us was broken by us, not them. We sucessfuylly lied to them, forced marched them to place after place. "Trail Of Tears". What did we expect from them?
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Old 12-04-2009, 17:04   #41
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Please excuse spelling, too late to edit!
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Old 13-04-2009, 00:34   #42
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I just got back from a boat trip into Malaysia. It's basically a stone's throw from Singapore. One of the guys took his wife and kids on a mountain bike ride through the jungle. I won't be overly dramatic and say he got lost but he ended up having to "chop" his way out of the jungle grasses overland after taking a couple of interesting turns.

People still die within miles of "civilization." The river we went up to the marina is basically mile after mile of mangrove and jungle.

The idea that the world is "full" is in my opinion an interesting perspective of city dwellers. People are attracted to jobs, jobs concentrate in cities. People that boat are attracted to jobs in cities on the coast. These place are getting very crowded.

One option is to stop buying crap you don't need, pay off the boat and go live cheap somewhere. Another option (mine) is to live in a city, near the water, boat as cheaply as I can and throw the hook when I have enough freedom chips.



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I think many of these issues are related simply to the fact the world population is increasing, but the world isn't getting any bigger. <snip> More people demanding water front property is going to mean increasing marina prices and fewer pristine anchorages. More cruisers/liveaboards means fewer places to anchor and more anchoring restrictions.

There are still many areas however where one can hang on the hook for free, often in isolation. My solution to the problem you have mentioned is to spend more time cruising those places.
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The only way I know to get out of this mess is to go cruising or mabye move to a deserted island <snip>
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Old 13-04-2009, 06:59   #43
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Please excuse spelling, too late to edit!
Thanks Orion. Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in trivial differences instead of focusing on the main points you share with people.

I think your comment about federal law and local practices is exactly on point with the OP.
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Old 13-04-2009, 10:40   #44
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I can understand your hesitation..... Just go ahead and follow your priorities and the rest will sort itself out
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Old 24-04-2009, 09:41   #45
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My first post here. Not currently an owner but looking to retire as a live-aboard. I agree that the slip prices are high due to supply and demand, what bothers me is the state-level war against living aboard a boat. California is not happy about losing out on property taxes when someone sells a house and moves onto a boat. Why don't they just raise the property taxes the marina's pay, then they could pass on the fees to us. Just like apartment owners do.
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