Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-04-2009, 10:17   #16
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Speaking of apathy ...

Q. What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?

A. I don't know, and I don't care.
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 10:38   #17
Registered User
 
Dramanaut's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Salish Sea
Boat: 1974 Cal 2-29
Posts: 51
Paul, I appreciate your positive and friendly attitude.

I would even go so far as to say that helping your neighbors clean up their derelict boats is a step toward forming a community of cruisers and live aboards who support each other. Cooperation between cruisers and residents is crucial to keeping the landowners from deciding who they approve of in their million dollar view and who they do not. We've seen this problem in Washington, and I suspect it is a problem a lot of places. People buy waterfront because of the view and then try to drive out the live aboards who are "spoiling" it. Whether you live in an anchorage or just visit, spreading good will and helping those without means ($) to keep an anchorage clean and trouble free may go a long way toward solving or at least minimizing some of these problems.

In response to the marina issue, I wonder if the Cooperative model could work, or the model of a eco village, where prople buy in (rather than rent from port authorities or private owners) and then share the responsibility. Imagine a marina where it is mostly live aboards, where cruisers are welcome, where the community grows organic food ashore on shared land, perhaps even raise animals, and offer workshops and boat related services to visitors during the boating season. Then when a member wants to go off cruising for an extended time, his/her slip becomes leasable during the leave. Perhaps these cooperatives could form a loose allegiance welcoming cruisers from other coops much like the yacht club recip model.

I admit, I know very little about the marina business model, but there has to be a better way. Living on a boat should not be for the wealthy only. I would love to see new models of seasteading and boating communities emerge and put the power in the hands of the boaters themselves. I only wish I had $5 million to buy a little marina and make it happen.
__________________

__________________
Dramanaut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 11:08   #18
Registered User
 
eric the viking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Morro Bay
Boat: Alden Cutter
Posts: 24
Gord, that is the sort of information I was asking for. Thank you. While regulation of personal property rights is not something I would ever propose, regulation of rates at municipal marinas, should be discussed.
The "One man's trash is another man's treasre" issue is alwasy going to be a problem, and I have no solution. I do think that some of the predatory practices of marinas, and municipalities around anchoring, and rates really should be something that can be impacted by organized action within the boating community.
This is NOT a rant, but rather an effort to identify a solution, and inspire others within the community to be heard, rather than accept these things as unchangable.
__________________
Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal.
Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name.
eric the viking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 11:55   #19
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dramanaut
... In response to the marina issue, I wonder if the Cooperative model could work, or the model of a eco village, where prople buy in (rather than rent from port authorities or private owners) and then share the responsibility...
Google dockominium; and/or check out these articles:

Thinking of Converting Your Marina to a Dockominium? Think Twice.

Dockominium plan rocking the boat : Development : Naples Daily News

The Dockominium Group: FAQs Part One

Dockominium trend defies weak market
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 12:29   #20
Registered User
 
Connemara's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Boat: Mirage 27 in Toronto; Wright 10 in Auckland
Posts: 671
Images: 2
This is actually an interesting issue and not just because it may be our ox that is being gored.

The question is who owns the seashore?

In Canada, you can buy land with water frontage and -- in some cases -- deny people the right to walk along the beach. In other cases -- there was one in Ontario recently -- you can own the beach but can't keep people off.

I suspect the same applies to anchoring. But I dunno.

In New Zealand (I'm told by my Kiwi lawyer son), there are disputed cases but it's basically either the national government or the Maori. Perhaps someone from there could chime in.

Not clear about the U.S., except that it appears to be bad and getting worse.

In the Toronto area, a large proportion of boaters belong to one of about two dozen yacht clubs, which lease land from the appropriate city. There are also a couple of publicly owned and operated marinas but no private operations (I think... might be one in Scarborough).

Personally, I like that model (I'm used to it and what I'm used to is right) because it offers a huge range of choices. You can pony up the big bucks and join a posh club w3ith white-coated waiters and tennis courts. Or dig up small change (relatively) and join a self-help club, where you have to do your share of the maintenance and projects. Or, if you don't like clubs, pay a yearly fee and dock at a marina.

If you just have marinas (private or public) I think you eventually get arbittary pricing.

From the point of view of cruising (on Lake Ontario, anyway) most of the yacht clubs offer reciprocal privileges. You can tie up at their club (space permitting) for whatever fee your club charges. (There are nuances, but that's basically it.)

If we had an international network of yacht clubs on that model, we'd solve many of the problems mentioned above.

My two cents, as I pretend that I do not have a deadline and that no work needs doing. La-la-la....(whistles blithely)


Connemara
__________________
Connemara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 14:29   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hampton, VA
Boat: Cal 39, Karma
Posts: 183
Jeez SoftAir....glad I'm not sensitive about being a Yankee.
jim
__________________
jimking100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 14:39   #22
Back to the game

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Medellin, Colombia
Boat: Pearson Countess 44 wannabe
Posts: 545
Jim we are on the same boat good we are not sensitive you should see how they threat colombians when we show up at a port of entry...after more than 300 entries I still feel like a hunting trophy...thats life..

__________________
JC
Soft Air is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 18:21   #23
Registered User
 
eric the viking's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Morro Bay
Boat: Alden Cutter
Posts: 24
Cruisers are a community, and as such, are entitled to rights. Granted, we are a world community bound by our specific registry, or location, but it seems to me, not too much to ask locally, or globally that there be more focus on the rules to protect us, and not as much focus on the rules to protect others from us.
When was the last time you heard of a crazed boater crashing into a shopping mall and killing 10 people?
__________________
Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal.
Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name.
eric the viking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 19:28   #24
Registered User
 
orion1's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Slidell, Louisiana, USA
Boat: William Atkin Cutter, 35'
Posts: 147
Images: 8
Not international law at all Paul, simply proper US Courts, Admiralty to be specific. Navigation rights always trump bottom ownership considerations. That has been very well established in the Federal courts in many cases over the years.
__________________
"Love My Country, Fear My Government"
orion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 19:47   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK East Coast
Boat: Riviera 35
Posts: 285
One or two of the Marinas in my area (East Coast UK), are having problems filling their berths. I don't have any accurate figures, only anecdotal, but we are seeing pressure on reduced prices. They don't seem to be advertising massive discounts yet, but a couple of peeps around here have negotiated quite large discounts for their berths. Supply and demand - the capitalist culture - is at work.
__________________
A reasonable person, accepts the Status Quo. An unreasonable person, wants to change it. All progress is therefore made by unreasonable people. Me, I'm just apathetic about the status quo. I think we want it back.
MoonlightShadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2009, 21:24   #26
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
My ancestors found the thought of any human owning land ludicrous. We are only here for a short time and we are the stewards of the land/ocean for our children, and our children's children. We bear the onus to pass on respect for the oceans and land to our children so that they will pass it on to theirs. If you think you own a piece of land, try not paying your taxes for awhile.
__________________
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:01   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
nautical62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,264
Images: 12
I think many of these issues are related simply to the fact the world population is increasing, but the world isn't getting any bigger. The current economy simply makes these effects more notable. (This is something we ignore that is a big part of many world problems: energy resources, food, housing costs, pollution, etc.) More people demanding water front property is going to mean increasing marina prices and fewer pristine anchorages. More cruisers/liveaboards means fewer places to anchor and more anchoring restrictions.

There are still many areas however where one can hang on the hook for free, often in isolation. My solution to the problem you have mentioned is to spend more time cruising those places.
__________________
nautical62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 13:02   #28
MV
Registered User
 
MV's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Diego
Boat: Willard 8 Ton World Cruiser
Posts: 461
Images: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to MV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Connemara View Post
... (I'm used to it and what I'm used to is right) ....
Best quotable net bite I have read in years!
__________________
MV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 20:04   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
nautical62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,264
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric the viking View Post
Cruisers are a community, and as such, are entitled to rights. ....
I'm a bit fuzzy on my constitutional law. In regards to community, I do remember something about rights of assembly. Rights of anchoring doesn't ring any bells.
__________________
nautical62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2009, 09:42   #30
Registered User
 
orion1's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Slidell, Louisiana, USA
Boat: William Atkin Cutter, 35'
Posts: 147
Images: 8
Yes, the Native Americans, God Bless Them, had it right. We should view land and water as belonging to all, and owned by none, and only claim ownership of personal items. Imagine the result, little need for government and taxes, and little or no greed and jealousy.

There would be no pompous, wealthy, jerks owing land, the view, and all they see, and beleive they own because it is in sight. They could not buy local, state and federal authorities, and their gold would not rule the poor, or average, and those of us who hear and march to a different drummer.
__________________

__________________
"Love My Country, Fear My Government"
orion1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.