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Old 24-06-2011, 09:30   #16
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

Make an offer you feel is fair then ask to see the recent survey. If you see something you don't like, you can pull out of the deal. If you don't see anything too bad I'd still hire my own surveyor to take a look at the boat. I really wouldn't trust the survey the seller has alone.

Also its kind of cheesy that he'll let you see it only if you make an offer.
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Old 24-06-2011, 09:37   #17
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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1) In Toronto, you do NOT need to replace the standing rigging every ten years. That's generally a salt-water rule. My boat's 38 years old, with original rigging, which I closely inspect every year. Why? It's never seen salt.
I was informed of this about an hour ago, in conversation with my broker. You have saved me the trouble of posting to confirm this. Thanks.

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3) Too bad for those minimizing losses. Not your problem.
That's what I say.

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If you want a dock queen with all mod cons and A/C, you are in the wrong size range. If you want a smaller-end of mid-sized boats (29 to 34 feet), the market is excellent, because these were the LAST boats guys bought in the '70s. Now they are past 80 and too old to sail, so you get the benefit of their care and maintenance for a fraction of the cost.
A more modern, comfortable boat is our eventual goal, but the first sailboat will be an 'experiment in terror'. Our past forays into sailing have not gone well, and our current interest is a last-ditch reconsideration of the cruising lifestyle.

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4) Good luck. I recommend perusing the cork boards of various Toronto yacht cliubs and having a surveyor on speed dial.
This has been suggested by another poster, and is our plan for this weekend. My previous surveyor is in the Georgian Bay area, so I need to find another in the Toronto area. One NOT recommended by any broker (fell for that last time).

Thank you kindly, for your valued advice.

Nomad
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Old 24-06-2011, 09:38   #18
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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Seems I can't win. No wonder I'm tossing and turning, trying to figure it all out.
For Catalina 30's you have a pretty good base. Perhaps the most popular production boat ever built so there really are a LOT of them. If you can round up a few near by it makes it an easy process to walk on them all and look under the covers a bit to see which one is in the best shape. As a rule of thumb when faced with a choice of 5 boats you can really buy or write offers on always go for the best one not the cheapest one. Let somebody else throw a lot of money to get the same boat you have.

That said, there are boats that cost more to fix up than they are worth. Good news with Catalina 30's is there are too many for sale to buy one of those. If it were some rare classic then you can decide if you want the time and money required to get the boat back right.

There are ALWAYS little hidden surprises you find when you spend as month on any boat. If you get all the things a surveyor can find in 5 hours then you have decent list. Just remember you are not buying all the Catalina 30's ever made you only are looking for the best one for sale that you can actually check out and purchase.

Should your tastes run into other boats it still works the same way. Find a few boats you would consider buying that really are for sale and compare them until you find out which is the best one. Condition counts a lot more than gadgets attached. Things you add on will be new.
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Old 24-06-2011, 09:44   #19
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

Enlighten me please, why does a yacht sailed in freshwater not need the rigging changed periodically?

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Old 24-06-2011, 09:45   #20
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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Make an offer you feel is fair then ask to see the recent survey. If you see something you don't like, you can pull out of the deal. If you don't see anything too bad I'd still hire my own surveyor to take a look at the boat. I really wouldn't trust the survey the seller has alone.

Also its kind of cheesy that he'll let you see it only if you make an offer.
Upon reflection, the survey that the seller has, is most likely the one he had done when he bought it three years ago, but I could be wrong about that. I can't imagine that he would have had another done after purchase. I understood the broker to say that he would let me see the survey in consideration of an offer so that 'he would know that I am serious'. From my conversations with him, he seems to be rather sensitive to that. He might have had some contact with 'tire kickers', I don't know.

Having my own re-done is probably good advice, but how good are these guys, really? Would love to have David Pascoe go over it. My last survey did not inspire unequivocal confidence in surveys. What he said over the phone after the survey was in marked contrast to what I found in the written report, received after the deal was done. My bad. (This was my one-and-only experience with surveys. All of my previous boats were bought new.)

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Old 24-06-2011, 10:00   #21
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

We've only paid for one survey and I thought the guy did a good job. Its hard to find a good surveyor. We spent probably just as much time picking our surveyor as we did finding our boat. I'd ask the surveyors to see some of their previous work or surveys and ask what fields of experience they have. Def check with the local head SAMS guy or whatever Canadian equiv is up there as well.

Marine Surveyors in Canada - The Marine Surveyor Web Site

Here is what our survey looked like:
The prepurchase*survey | SV Sundowner sails again

The thing about the survey is that sometimes the little bitty line items are the big ones. You have to know what you're looking at and read slowly. Some innocuous sentence might spell huge money. Also sometimes they go on and on about some small safety compliance item that means nothing in terms of money to fix.

I found it best to be on board during the survey, hopefully without the owner, and actually talk to the surveyor asking what he feels are the biggest problems in terms of time and money. That is what we did. We spent probably a total of six hours on the survey.
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Old 24-06-2011, 10:05   #22
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

Note: I forgot to mention, that at $32,000, the boat includes dinghy with 2 hp and summer slip. Boat requires $1,000 to $2,000 fiberglass repair of deck.

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Old 24-06-2011, 10:26   #23
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

way too high a price. Whatever one you buy, confirm the engine condition. If you have an engine survey..... and if the boat has no blisters.... I dont see why you will have to spend anywhere near 50% on repairs etc. If the boat needs deck repair (are you sure the $2000 wont grow to $5000?) then it's not a $32k boat. More likely its a $12k boat. You can get a dingy and 2hp motor for $1000
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Old 24-06-2011, 10:34   #24
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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Note: I forgot to mention, that at $32,000, the boat includes dinghy with 2 hp and summer slip. Boat requires $1,000 to $2,000 fiberglass repair of deck.

Nomad

Lots of cheaper, better boats in the Toronto area. Deck repairs soon add up! I'd walk away from this one.
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Old 24-06-2011, 10:45   #25
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

Catalina 30...
I have a 1983 C30 in Marina del Rey. I bought the boat a year ago. Trying to think how I could spend $32k on improvements and upgrades...OKAY I got it! Nowhere!

When I moved her to my slip, I spent the evening sipping cocktails and making lists of all the fabulous new equipment to get. I googled every marine repair facility for miles, noted phone numbers and yelp reviews. I priced equipment and spares from WM, Torrsen, Defender, and put the data into spread sheets.

Around Memorial Day I spent 12 days at Catalina Island, moored or hooked. It was wonderful. I had a great time and learned a ton about my boat. Allow me to share:

The C30...voluminous inside, fairly well equipped- about 5 steps above tent camping, and 5 steps below Motel 6. I have a dc fridge, propane range and proper tank storage, 6 gallons hot water, sufficient battery storage. Everything you need for a nice weekend. Compared to other 30's I think she has a light weight hull that responds and turns on a dime, but moves on a rhumb line like a fully clothed fat chick in a wave pool= SLOW.

You are WAY over estimating both the repair/improvement budget, and the boat as a whole. (And I agree with other posts about the price- you're a walking dollar sign if you're okay with dropping $32k on a C30. Mine listed for $21k, closed for $15.5.) My point is that in 12 days at anchor on the Island, I learned that the C30 is an excellent starter boat. She's a great weekender for two. Perfect for a single hander for a week. But she is NOT a long term live aboard, blue water, go anywhere, anchor for weeks, self contained, waterborne RV.

Bottom line: Buy her, enjoy. Spend for maintenance, but don't dump tons of cash in to make here something she's not. And if the PO over invested and wants YOU to pick the bill up...don't do it!

Ken
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Old 24-06-2011, 11:02   #26
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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snip...Catalina 30...
You are WAY over estimating both the repair/improvement budget, and the boat as a whole. (And I agree with other posts about the price- you're a walking dollar sign if you're okay with dropping $32k on a C30. Mine listed for $21k, closed for $15.5.) My point is that in 12 days at anchor on the Island, I learned that the C30 is an excellent starter boat. She's a great weekender for two. Perfect for a single hander for a week. But she is NOT a long term live aboard, blue water, go anywhere, anchor for weeks, self contained, waterborne RV.

Ken
I see that now. The repair budget that I got was from a surveyor who deals mostly in sport fisher type boats, with VERY expensive engines. Most of his info is slanted in that regard, but is somewhat useful in general.

When we looked at the boat, we realized intuitively that it is not a long-range cruiser. We were thinking of June/July/August on Georgian Bay/North Channel. From what you say this may not be feasible. (Previous cruising consisted of 3-weeks/year in a Trojan F27, 9 days on a 26' sailboat, one crewing trip on a 40' down the east coast.) On those trips, we had access to food/supplies about every three days.

We HAD thought that a 30 foot sailboat would be at least as suitable as the 26' Trojan, (which had lots of storage space under the V-berth, settee and in the cabinet under the sink) but this does not appear to be the case.

With what you have said, we may need to look elsewhere.

We had initially thought of doing one trip down south (perhaps trucking it down) in whatever boat we buy, just to see what it is like. From what has been said on the forum, this does not appear to be advisable, as it will expose the boat to the salt.

Your comments are appreciated.

Regards,

Nomad
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Old 24-06-2011, 11:21   #27
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

Even an old survey has value, not everything picked up on purchase ever gets done and together with those that have been addressed give you a good insight into how the boat has been maintained by the Vendor.

If the Vendor was serious (or the boat didn't have problems he was hoping you would not spot) he wouldn't be hiding the last survey.
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Old 24-06-2011, 11:22   #28
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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Thank you muchly, for the links, and your feedback.

Regards,

Nomad
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Old 24-06-2011, 11:37   #29
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

nomad--that catalina should be selling at an asking price of 1/3 what is being asked, especially if the deck needs work..LOL.. goood luck.
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Old 24-06-2011, 11:51   #30
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Re: A 'No-win' situation

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The boat in question has a 'recent' survey, which the seller will allow me to view if I make an offer. I was considering, depending on how long ago the survey was done, of relying on that survey, rather than having another one done.

The only reason I am considering this is that the selling broker is the same one who sold our boat, in my estimation a reasonably honest man, as brokers go. He has revealed to me the shortcomings of the boat, and what needs to be repaired, with an estimate of cost as per his consultation with the fiberglass man at our yard. The usual Cat 30 issues of compression post damage and one stantion base repair.

Is this a reasonable approach?

Nomad
Yes, it's a reasonable approach, but that price is nuts in my view. I would rather get a beat-up C&C for that price and spend the warmer fall days recoring the deck.

Your broker's honesty doesn't enter into it. The Catalina 30 is such a common boat...if not the most common boat...that there are usually dozens of examples for sale on the Great Lakes at any given time.

If you have your heart set on it, I mean. Me, I would figure out what kind of sailing I want to do (and with a Catalina 30 that's either average racing or average cruising), and would proceed from there.

Look, here's one at 2/3rd the price, which I would consider "a good place to start":


Catalina 30 1979 Extra fresh water and holding tanks for extended cruising. Rebuilt Atomic-4. Dingy with Honda 2hp Excellent shape with many extras for comfortable cruising asking. CDN $24,000 neg(705) 253-9346E-mail: sailing@bellnet.ca
Found it in Boatforsale.org. Took me all of eight seconds. You're welcome.

Here's two likely OK C&Cs (but bigger!) in the same listings:

C & C 31 Corvette 1970 Shoal -draft cruiser sloop designed for all family activities 2008 Yanmar 2YM diesel + aggressive propeller -40 hours total time 1 person sailing with furling main & jibsail oversise cockpit wide decks standing room cabins accomodates 5 adults comfortably greatly updated upgraded & new AC/DC,wires panels electronic & mechanical equipment built incredibly strong LOA31' Beam 9' draft 39 inches $ 19,000 CDN $19,000 neg(519) 885-3124E-mail: settebello@sajecki.com

C&C 33 MKI 1977 Good condition. Fresh water boat, Lying Toronto. 6 sails, dodger, bimini. Good racer/cruiser. Gori prop Interprotect hull. CDN $30,000 (905) 773-4892(416) 435-6133E-mail: ianwhite@bizfix.ca
A C&C 33 is a great, fast cruiser you can drive in a squall. A Catalina 30 of that vintage has a too-small rudder in my view and I've seen them broach too easily on a run in more than 22 knots. All these boats probably have A4s in 'em.
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