1st purchase of used vessel

[WindwardPrinces]

A good bit of this discussion sort of depends on the value of the boat.

It makes a difference if the boat is a 10K boat vs a 100K boat.

You may or may not need a survey to buy a 10K boat, but you definitely need one for a 100K boat.

[WindwardPrinces]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

of course brokers don't work for free but why does the buyer care if the purchase price he settles on is fair value for him? again, if one buyer buys a boat for 20k for sale by owner and another buyer buys a boat for the same price listed by a broker why does either buyer give a damn what the seller nets??? 20k is what buyer pays whether the seller puts 20k in his pocket or only 18k. we can define what goes into the price of the boat all day long be it commissions, recent bottom paint, number of winches or the love of the seller of a boat who won't budge on the price but when all is said and done what value the buyer puts on the boat is all that matters.

Would you rather pay 20K or 18K for that identical boat?

The difference in that case is $2,000.

What matters is what the seller will accept for his boat. If he'll accept 18K with a broker, he'd likely also accept 18K without one.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by Moody46CC

Of course the buyer is paying the broker fee. A seller's broker is by law duty bound to do his utmost for the seller; a buyer's broker is by law duty bound to do his utmost for the buyer. People who try to sell their own boats usually do not discount them by the 10% broker's fee, passing that on to you the buyer.

As a "newbie," I'd recommend getting a buyer broker. As you can tell from the messages on this topic, there is a lot to inspecting, buying, titling, and moving your boat. Then come taxes. And that is only if you know you exactly what make and model boat you want. A buyer broker can help you there, steering you away from boats that are not appropriate or known to have issues.

Buying a boat for most people is a big transaction involving significant emotional and financial stress. If you know what you are doing, it can be fun and exciting. But there are an awful lot of moving objects that have to be brought into formation to make it work to your advantage, and a buyer broker can help. You are on your own otherwise in a game where the odds are against a newbie.

i know of no law that binds a broker to do his best for the buyer or the seller. there are broker organizations that have standards but i haven't seen a local, state or federal statute, in america anyway, that might have recourse against a broker who simply did less than his best for his client. and who's to say what any particular broker's best is anyway?

but the point is moot. any of the many reputable brokers will do a fine job for both the buyer and seller during a sales transaction. brokers need both a seller to list a boat and a buyer to sell the boat to. any broker that does less than his best for one at the cost of the other does so at his eventual peril. screw enough sellers to help the buyers and future buyers will be hard to find. of course the reverse applies. i've bought several boats over the years, always using a broker paid for by the seller and of those only one obviously misrepresented the boat in favor of the seller. fortunately he was busted by a good surveyor and i was successful in negotiating a fair price but i told the story to others and came to find out that his reputation preceded him. today his firm no longer exists. since that time, i ask for references anytime i approach a broker about a boat he has listed.

[Cheechako]

Yes, be sure to have a contract. You don't mention size or budget, but if much money I would use a documentation person to get it all right. PM me for a sample contract if you want but I advise using a pro.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces

The odd logic is thinking that a broker or team of brokers that are charging you 10% are "free". If they're coming out of your deal, you're paying them.

You're negotiating a bargain with a seller. Your job is to get him to accept the lowest price, his is to get the most money for his boat. The brokers are middle men.

Part of my "strange" logic is only the assumption that a boat purchase is a negotiation, which it is. The broker's commission is negotiable. My only assumption is that the selling broker is willing to give you a discount in the amount that he'd have paid a buyer's broker. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. If he won't, you can always offer to bring your own broker to facilitate your part of the deal.

Regardless of any of that, a buyer broker isn't free. His fee is coming out of your transaction.

Just so it's clear what we're both saying, the "selling broker" is the buyer's broker. The broker for the person selling the boat is the "listing broker". Also, this is not just the buyer's transaction. There are 2 parties involved & they both have their own expenses. The broker's fees are not a buyer's expense. A broker would not normally agree to accept half his commission if he finds the buyer & it would be short sighted to ask him to do so. Finding a buyer & handling both sides of the transaction is more complicated & much more work than just listing a boat & representing a seller. To assume that listing brokers normally agree to do the extra work for no compensation is incorrect. This is a common misconception & many buyers suffer for it. When you buy a boat that is listed by a broker & you have no one representing you, you are at a disadvantage. The listing broker may handle the whole transaction but he represents the seller & his best interest. Having a professional represent you & your best interests is smart, especially when you consider that the seller actually pays for your representation.

[Setitus]

Just purchased our first boat in Annapolis and used a broker. I sent him a list of what we "think" we wanted and our intended use. Together we developed a list of boats from his brokerage and others. Spent four days looking at the selection and made our decision. The broker was extremely helpful through out the entire process. He knew the surveyors, helped with insurance, selection of a marina, everything. Pointed out things that I would have missed entirely and I felt that through out the entire process he was on our side. Very pleased with him and very glad I did not try to do it ourselves.

If you would like his name please private message me and I will sent along. Good luck.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces

Would you rather pay 20K or 18K for that identical boat?

The difference in that case is $2,000.

What matters is what the seller will accept for his boat. If he'll accept 18K with a broker, he'd likely also accept 18K without one.

you missed the point. in my example i already established the SELLING PRICE was 20k on both boats. two different transactions. one fsbo and the other broker listed. but fine if you want to redo the math after both buyers better negotiating down 2k great. be my guest.

but your reasoning is bassackwards whatever results in the final sales price. there is always an asking price whether owner selling or broker listed but rare it is that the buyers first offer matches that price. in any sale the seller has a problem that the buyer doesn't have. his problem is to find a buyer that will pay whatever price he can get for the boat. a statement that the price is firm is laughable. anytime i hear that i say 'well gee thanks then i won't waste either of our time by making an offer.' guess what the reply to that sounds like?

the buyer on the other hand has no problem as regards price. he's already established his budget and hopefully has researched the market value of any boat he might want to make an offer on. it doesn't matter to him/her what whoops the seller has to jump through to get to the price that he wants to pay. he has other boats to look at and the seller knows that. hell, the seller's own broker likely has other boats for the buyer to look at. i've looked at up to three boats on a given day with a broker who when i called about one of his listings also had two other boats ready for me to look at that might suite my needs listed by another completely different broker.

sellers do have brokers working for them but most always that same broker is working for owners of boats competing with his. and of course a seller may or may not be under financial pressure to get rid of a boat where selling themselves or with the help of a broker. buyers never will be.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

you missed the point. in my example i already established the SELLING PRICE was 20k on both boats. two different transactions. one fsbo and the other broker listed. but fine if you want to redo the math after both buyers better negotiating down 2k great. be my guest.

but your reasoning is bassackwards whatever results in the final sales price. there is always an asking price whether owner selling or broker listed but rare it is that the buyers first offer matches that price. in any sale the seller has a problem that the buyer doesn't have. his problem is to find a buyer that will pay whatever price he can get for the boat. a statement that the price is firm is laughable. anytime i hear that i say 'well gee thanks then i won't waste either of our time by making an offer.' guess what the reply to that sounds like?

the buyer on the other hand has no problem as regards price. he's already established his budget and hopefully has researched the market value of any boat he might want to make an offer on. it doesn't matter to him/her what whoops the seller has to jump through to get to the price that he wants to pay. he has other boats to look at and the seller knows that. hell, the seller's own broker likely has other boats for the buyer to look at. i've looked at up to three boats on a given day with a broker who when called about one of his listings also had two other boats ready for me to look at listed by another broker.

sellers may or may not be under financial pressure to get rid of a boat. buyers never will be.

Of course that's assuming that the buyer hasn't fallen in love. As soon as that happens the buyer's got a problem.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Of course that's assuming that the buyer hasn't fallen in love. As soon as that happens the buyer's got a problem.

oh so true. but he was already a gonner once he decided to buy a boat in the first place. i began my retirement making a promise to myself in order to better manage my limited finances. having owned airplanes, sailboats and married twice i swore that in the future if it flies, floats or fornicates i'd RENT IT. couldn't help m'self on the floating part, not too worried about the flying part but the other???? ouch. been a long time and i can't even find a lady who'll talk dirty to me without a commitment.

[WindwardPrinces]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Just so it's clear what we're both saying, the "selling broker" is the buyer's broker. The broker for the person selling the boat is the "listing broker". Also, this is not just the buyer's transaction. There are 2 parties involved & they both have their own expenses. The broker's fees are not a buyer's expense. A broker would not normally agree to accept half his commission if he finds the buyer & it would be short sighted to ask him to do so. Finding a buyer & handling both sides of the transaction is more complicated & much more work than just listing a boat & representing a seller. To assume that listing brokers normally agree to do the extra work for no compensation is incorrect. This is a common misconception & many buyers suffer for it. When you buy a boat that is listed by a broker & you have no one representing you, you are at a disadvantage. The listing broker may handle the whole transaction but he represents the seller & his best interest. Having a professional represent you & your best interests is smart, especially when you consider that the seller actually pays for your representation.

The commission comes out of the transaction. In other words, both the buyer AND seller are paying it, no matter who actually writes the check.

The brokers are facilitating the transaction. It's a valuable role, but it depends on the transaction whether it's complicated or not. I don't doubt the value of having a professional involved, but I think it's mostly in helping the buyer find a boat or negotiate.

What exactly is the "extra work" you talking about that's worth 5% of the sales price?

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by WindwardPrinces

The commission comes out of the transaction. In other words, both the buyer AND seller are paying it, no matter who actually writes the check.

The brokers are facilitating the transaction. It's a valuable role, but it depends on the transaction whether it's complicated or not. I don't doubt the value of having a professional involved, but I think it's mostly in helping the buyer find a boat or negotiate.

What exactly is the "extra work" you talking about that's worth 5% of the sales price?

I give up.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

This is a common misconception & many buyers suffer for it. When you buy a boat that is listed by a broker & you have no one representing you, you are at a disadvantage. The listing broker may handle the whole transaction but he represents the seller & his best interest. Having a professional represent you & your best interests is smart, especially when you consider that the seller actually pays for your representation.

could not disagree more. nobody in the transaction wants to make it work more than the broker. IT'S HOW HE PUTS FOOD ON HIS TABLE AND PUTS A ROOF OVER HIS HEAD. every boat i've ever bought i bought through a listing broker and every broker i've ever dealt with has shown me any number of boats that would fit my needs and budget. think about it. who's getting the most benefit out of the listing broker paid by the seller? the seller, who know full well that his is not the only boat being pushed by his broker but also those competing with his listed by the same broker and even other brokers? or the buyer who understands that seeing a transaction go through for a boat, anybody's boat on which the broker who'll be paid several thousand dollars BY THE SELLER that he brings home to his family?

[cementsailor]

The last boat I bought was a private transaction between the owner and myself with no broker involved. I found a local vessel documentation service who handled all the paperwork, title transfer, registration, etc. for $300 flat. Easy breezy.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

could not disagree more. nobody in the transaction wants to make it work more than the broker. IT'S HOW HE PUTS FOOD ON HIS TABLE AND PUTS A ROOF OVER HIS HEAD. every boat i've ever bought i bought through a listing broker and every broker i've ever dealt with has shown me any number of boats that would fit my needs and budget. think about it. who's getting the most benefit out of the listing broker paid by the seller? the seller, who know full well that his is not the only boat being pushed by his broker but also those competing with his listed by the same broker and even other brokers? or the buyer who understands that seeing a transaction go through for a boat, anybody's boat on which the
broker who'll be paid several thousand dollars BY THE SELLER that he brings home to his family?

I don't understand what you're saying. Of course a broker will show every boat that they have listed. If they sell a boat they have listed they get a full fee so they are very motivated to show those boats. However, a listing agent will only show you his own listings unless you make him your agent. If a seller has listed his boat with that agent but will only give him a half fee whether he finds the buyer or not then the agent is no more motivated to show that listing than any other listing available, whether it's his listing or another agent's.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

I don't understand what you're saying. Of course a broker will show every boat that they have listed. If they sell a boat they have listed they get a full fee so they are very motivated to show those boats. However, a listing agent will only show you his own listings unless you make him your agent. .

dead wrong. have you never contacted a real estate agent when moving to a new town? do they not go through the multiple listings to find you several houses in your price range?

when i last called the broker about a boat he had listed he said come on down and i will have researched other boats that i might be interested in. by the time i got to his office he had two other boats listed by two different brokers all arranged for us to see. i ended up buying one of the other boats on which he shared the commission happily. he knows he can count on me ringing him up next time i'm in the market. i'll call him even before bothering to look at what's listed because if he doesn't have what i want he'll find it somewhere. he knows i'm not ready to move up yet but he knows what i'll want when i am and he calls me when something comes in that i might like and offers to show it to me even knowing he won't sell that particular boat to me unless he still has the listing a few years down the road. sometimes i waste his time, sometimes i don't but i do like kicking dock fenders when the mood strikes me. i've referred several others looking to buy, especially first timers and nobody has been disappointed.

more often than not as it is with real estate agents, boat brokers end up splitting a fee with another agent who had the listing. in today's market, boat brokers don't need sellers. they've got tons wanting to dump their boats. what they need is buyers and they'll work their butt off for a potential buyer in order to not lose him to a competing agent when even half the commission becomes a crap shoot.