Storm Tactics

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Nauticatarcher

The best storm tactic is good weather forecasting and avoidance, with modern forecasting techniques and the ability to receive them on board its just about possible to sail around anything, do you go for the fence at the top of the cliff or the ambulance at the bottom

Maybe for coastal cruising, but I strongly disagree that it is "just about possible to sail around anything" offshore, modern technology notwithstanding. Storms often move quickly and unpredictably. What appears as a run-of-the-mill low on the isobaric charts the day you shove off can turn into something really nasty, really soon.

A year or so ago on this forum there was much said in the perennial multi/mono smackdown about multis being safer because they can outrun bad weather. I started a thread specifically to find someone who actually had done this, i.e., outrun a storm, in either a multi or a mono. Interestingly, there were no takers.

Having said that, yes, I ABSOLUTELY agree that avoidance is preferable, but I think it's a fool who believes that's enough. You have to assume that you and the forecasts will not always get it right. Even if I am 90% right (which is probably an exaggeration!) and the forecasts are 90% right, that still leaves an uncomfortable margin of error.

[Southern Star]

Nauticatarcher, while I agree that it is far better to avoid a storm than to fight it, I'm not sure that I agree with your suggestion that it is possible to sail around virtually anything. Firstly, many storms are not forecast to reach anywhere near the intensity they ultimately develop - Fastnet being only one of many examples.

Secondly, the 48 and 72 hour forecasts will typically cover a very large area indeed. If days away from land, you should be able to sail to what will likely be the safest quadrant of an approaching hurricane, but to avoid it entirely? Some hurricanes produce gale force winds that cover areas that are twice or more than the width of the state of Florida and huge seas to go with it. And storms still have a tendancy to defy the various models that forecasters rely upon.

Hurricane Mitch, for example, made a turn to the south that NO ONE had predicted and then stalled for days in an area that it was not forecast to hit. Anyone who crosses oceans (or makes long bluewater passages) without preparation for the worst is asking for trouble. Yes, you can try to rely upon your radio/weatherfax (Fantom did prior to being lost in Hurricane Mitch, and attempted to find a location that her skipper thought could save both the ship and crew). But if you don't take along a sea anchor and/or series drogue, and if you do not have a liferaft, and if you and your boat are not personally prepared to deal with these possibilities..... you may as well throw yourself off that cliff.

Brad

[Nauticatarcher]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Nauticatarcher, while I agree that it is far better to avoid a storm than to fight it, I'm not sure that I agree with your suggestion that it is possible to sail around virtually anything. Firstly, many storms are not forecast to reach anywhere near the intensity they ultimately develop - Fastnet being only one of many examples.

Secondly, the 48 and 72 hour forecasts will typically cover a very large area indeed. If days away from land, you should be able to sail to what will likely be the safest quadrant of an approaching hurricane, but to avoid it entirely? Some hurricanes produce gale force winds that cover areas that are twice or more than the width of the state of Florida and huge seas to go with it. And storms still have a tendancy to defy the various models that forecasters rely upon.

Hurricane Mitch, for example, made a turn to the south that NO ONE had predicted and then stalled for days in an area that it was not forecast to hit. Anyone who crosses oceans (or makes long bluewater passages) without preparation for the worst is asking for trouble. Yes, you can try to rely upon your radio/weatherfax (Fantom did prior to being lost in Hurricane Mitch, and attempted to find a location that her skipper thought could save both the ship and crew). But if you don't take along a sea anchor and/or series drogue, and if you do not have a liferaft, and if you and your boat are not personally prepared to deal with these possibilities..... you may as well throw yourself off that cliff.

Brad

I agree with you totally, but the saying "right ocean, right time" springs to mind, we carry a para anchor on board and I hope it never sees the light of day. but as I have used one literally hundreds of times as a commercial Fisherman have no fear of getting it out if needed, to go back to my point about avoidance, currently we are sitting in Dunedin, awaiting a new anchor winch motor after cruising Fiordland and Stewart Island and another Yacht that was here left this morning to go North with a Gale Warning an 40Kts with very rough seas forecast, its a different story tomorrow but I'm sure he'll be propping up some bar some where in the future telling stories of the storms he's sailed in, when for the sake of 24hrs it would be a whole different story.
In the last two yrs we have sailed the East Coast of Australia, Circumnavigated Tasmania, crossed the Tasman and now are 2/3rds of the way through our circumnavigation of South Island New Zealand, all this in the Roaring Forties, looking back through our log apart from 1 day mid Tasman we have never had more than 30kts, this is not due to luck but good passage planning and using all weather data available.

[Southern Star]

Robert is correct - the risk of rudder damage is much greater if you are forced backwards by a breaking wave, rather than forwards.

Brad

[mjt]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Robert is correct - the risk of rudder damage is much greater if you are forced backwards by a breaking wave, rather than forwards.

The question I answered was whether the same slick effects due to heaving to (in that case with a sea anchor) would destabilise a breaking wave if the boat was backwards rather than forwards. My answer presupposes no breaking wave for that reason.

I would need a very good reason to turn the stern of my boat to dangerous seas. The front of my boat is more suited to the task of riding waves and dissipating excess energy safely than the stern and I think this would be true of most.

[Wotname]

Thanks for the description. Interestingly Storm Tactics (and others) mentions the same risk of be unaware of increasing wind when down wind sailing.

[CharlieCobra]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Thanks for the description. Interestingly Storm Tactics (and others) mentions the same risk of be unaware of increasing wind when down wind sailing.

For good reason. After running and surfing for hours, ya suddenly realize you have too much canvas aloft and have to figure out a way to come about and shorten without broaching. I our case, a particularly large wave pushed us onto a Beam Reach in 45 knots where we were pinned for a bit on the face of that wave as it marched North while still making 10 knots along the face. Eventually, the wave finally slid under us and I came up hard in the trough while sheeting the Main till it luffed. Twas a wild ride there for a bit. We doused the Mizzen, put a reef in the Main, furled the 135 and rigged the Staysail. Later in the evening it turned out we still had too much sail aloft and we had to come about once again to douse. The same tactics worked except we chose the time and didn't get pinned by a wave. We ended up surfing a wave through the breakwater at Point Hudson at over 9 knots. It took us over 200' to stop in full astern. I learned a few lessons that day. One of them was to trust this boat.

[Angel Louise]

We previously had a mono-hull with a Paratech sea anchor, but prior to acquiring our current heavy displacement catamaran sold it in favor of the Jordan Series Drogue after research including all the reports in the Drag Device Data Base and reports on the web. We have reinforced tangs at the corners of both hulls near the strern with plans to lie to the Series Drogue should it ever be a necessity. Its our belief that the larger rear cockpit will not be compromised by following seas, especially in light of the continued forward movement with the vessel in the seas and the research showing more lift in the stern than in the bow of all vessels.

Ed on Angel Louise

[docgav]

Ed,
As you are no doubt aware drogues and sea anchors do different things. A sea anchor is designed to stop you. A drogue will slow you. They are both useful survival tools but should not be confused in function or form. On my Cat I have bridled attachment points on bows and sterns. The bows to park (stop/sleep/tuck in) with on my para-anchors sea anchor. The stern for my variable opening drogue. WHen I need to keep moving downwind but to stop surfing or control speed I run the drogue.
I would have a concern running my sea anchor off the stern. On 'Magic Happens' (Hitchiker 40 cat) and Chaotic Harmony (Catana 42scat ) I have taken a full breaking wave - solid green) over the boat. (two separate out of season cyclones) The exposed stern cockpit would have been very much at risk in these.
Just a thought.
Gavin

[Jmolan]

I will throw out a few thoughts. I am a sailor and also a Capt. of a Bearing Sea Trawler. After 28 winters in Alaska I have experienced many differnt wind and sea conditions, as well as boat headings and all.

We typically "jog" our vessels (125') in big seas and winds. We will Jog for 6 hours or so upwind, then turn downwind and make it up faster and turn a round and do it again untill it moderates.

The Jog is 45 degrees off the wind. If you get too close to the wind the seas are too steep. Bearing sea has 30'-40' chop as opposed to the N. Pacific which has 40' waves. The key is to make the wall less steep by going up and down on an angle. If you get hit by a sluffer (whitewater) it will ususally not engulf you. If you take them head on you get your lights punched out. The problem is not the breaking wave, it is the hole right behind it that you drop into and get buried by the next wave. Keeping it on and angle (Like LL's hove to stuff) makes it livable and will allow you to avoid the holes better.

If you run off (as we do when we turn around) you will find you do not want to go on the same 45 degree angle as it is so uncomfortable. heavy rolling and yawing. So if you run off in steep breaking seas, you end up in a "hole"....you better have a good tight set up to take a hit from behind, like a full swimming pool size splash of water on you. Remember, or watch some time when you see a breaker coming, it is the hole afterword that will be the bad spot.

We take waves up the ramp and bury the entire deck (I have photos) when we run off in big steep ones. If it gets that bad I usually turn around and jog. It is less comfortable.....but safer. By the way did you know the most unstable course is downwind for ANY vessel? I had to have a full days class and videos to believe that one.

Well...that is the methods we use in the Bearing Sea on +100' boats like you see on the dangerous catch show.

I have a Searunner Trimaran (in Mexico) and I know Jim Brown used an 8 foot chute off his sterns and adjusted the angle and rode like a duck. He is concerned about rudder damage. I have not yet tried it but I want to try one off the bow. Mark Hassle set a chute off his 37' Searunner stern and rode out a blow off S. Africa. He was pulled south by the big current down there, against the wind!

Searunners have a central cockpit a long ways from the water, and you can fix a storm cover over the back window.

Knowing what I know....or maybe better to sya believing what I believe. I prefer to have a boat that is bouyant, up and running over a down deep and heavy tripper. Just a few thoughts.....:-)
http://photobucket.com/albums/c305/jmolan/
http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n53/jmol_album/
http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/sancarloscondo/

[Wotname]

Jmolan,

Thanks for "throwing out a few thoughts" (and the pictures).

Let me see if I understand you correctly, when you "jog" along, you are basicly steaming along (slowly ?) about 45 degrees off the wind. During this time, your keel is moving through the water (forwards) in the normal fashion?

Given you background and experience, can you comment on the effect of a stalled keel as described by L & L?

As I understand it, they describe a situation of lying hove to (to a para anchor if necessary) with the boat stalled about 50 degrees off the wind. The keel is stalled and is moving sideways through the water (at about 1/2 to 1 kt) creating a slick or a Von Karman vortex street to windward. This slick then disrupts the breaking of the seas directly upwind of the stalled keel. The trick is then to prevent the boat from sailing out of this small protected zone (i.e. keeping the hove to and the keel stalled).

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Jmolan

. I am a sailor and also a Capt. of a Bearing Sea Trawler. After 28 winters in Alaska

You chaps are nuts. I saw a run of a few of those Dangerous Catch docos while stuck in a hotel room recently and realised the crab fishing season up there is in January or Febuary! So may I just repeat: Nuts, nuts, crazy, nuts and you all have a few kangaroos lose in your top paddock.

Its great to get all the ideas from those experienced and then work out good systems for our own type of boat and the sea state we are facing.

One thing I was thinking was that the method employed also depends on the crew and systems. Jogging either under engine or closely reefed is an excelent idea but there probably needs to be hands on the wheel when the waves get too big to, as you say, miss the hole at the back, etc. An auto pilot can't do that. Neither can a husband and wife team for more than just a few hours. Not a 3 day storm.
You guys would be experienced in these storms of a frequent basis and have a number of crew to take the helm. As Lin and Larry Pardy say in their book on the subject, they have only be in 4 'real' storms in 20 years! A 40 foot wave, short and cresting would freak out many a sailor, your people would think them quite common.


Mark

[Jmolan]

Let me see if I understand you correctly, when you "jog" along, you are basicly steaming along (slowly ?) about 45 degrees off the wind. During this time, your keel is moving through the water (forwards) in the normal fashion

Yes, we Jog at dead Idle, the only reason for being in gear is to hold the heading. You want as little or no fwd. motion as possible.

I would trust Larry to not steer you wrong. I have not read the book. If you have a boat design you can hove to and have it basically take care of itself that would be a great tool to have in your box. You have to know your boat and what it likes and does not like. It will tell you if you work it out before the need have it take care of you.....kinda like a horse. Let it do what it is designed to do, don't force it to do otherwise or you will regret it.

We will sometimes get our nets set (we tow about 3.5 knots) and have it come up to where the seas are just ridiculous. At this point I have to decide to keep going downwind basically safe and snug, or send the crew out to haulback. As long as we have some speed we are OK. When we haul back we stop and actually mave backwards a bit. That is when the same seas will start climbing on board. You direction of movement is huge in being able to ride out the junk.

You probably know a 10' wave is 4 times more powerful than a 5' wave. Also the speed is the same. As the speed doubles the force cubes. In wind waves sails speed etc.......just learn to lessen to blows, look for the paths that avoid the holes...and when you are totally confused, let the boat take care of you, hove to or get on a drouge or chute, what ever the boat and conditions warrent.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jmolan

After 28 winters in Alaska I have experienced many differnt wind and sea conditions, as well as boat headings and all.

That must rank in the all time list of understatements .........can see why you would want to recreation in the warm ......but that must be a helluva transition back every year!

[Jmolan]

Well I always tell my crew "never say you seen it all" Because sure enough something will come along and give you a good lesson in something you haven't seen before.
It is one of the resons I was so facinated with the ocean from the start. Endlessly educational in so many things.
I re-read some of my storm stuff and I hope I did not sound flippant. It is nothing to take lightly this stuff really. One thing that helps me a lot is to have rules or "sayings" that you can recall when you need them. You need rules to overide the emotions.
I am used to working with guys who get so used to this stuff ......you hear things like "sloppy" or "got my a** kicked out there" or "slow going" etc. It's just part of what we have to do. I work from mid-January Through March then again in the summer. I prefer summer, but the good fishing is in the winter.....in fact the Aleutian Islands make awsome summer cruising grounds (all to your self)......:-)