Kretshmer on 'Traditional' Boats - Floating Bathtub / False Security ?

[SaltyMonkey]

i am gravitating toward centerboards myself.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day all,

Not sure that it is relevant, but according to the Sep Latitude 38, two boats had to be abandonded in this years "Puddle Jump": both were Westsail-32's.

Interesting...

Jim

Wetsail 32's are notorious for pitching quite a bit. Some people don't notice, but I've heard several people mention that it's like sailing a seesaw. My experience is limited to some harbor sailing on one. They are also notorious for being the "wetsnail 32", clocking 60 miles a day downhill with a 30 knot tail wind while being towed.

I'll just state again that it has more to do with the crew than the boat, and a crew that understands the pros and cons (and doesn't mind the cons) of their particular vessel will be happy.

[Robert G]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

Read what he said. He never said, "all;" he said, "many." The trick is to know the difference.

Don't make the mistake of reasoning from the general to the specific. Boat designs are individuals. Even boats that superficially look similar can handle very differently in the water.

I'm not trying to put words in the Author's mouth, and am aware of his choice of "many" over "all." That's actually what I was posting about - hence the question "is there context that might indicate which designs, in particular, he might be talking about?"

In another reply you referenced "the boats that the author has owned," and this is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about. To which traditional designs, might you speculate, in particular, might he be referring?

I'm curious, precisely because he is "a very well established delivery caption with a gazillion nautical miles under his belt on hundreds of boats" - sounds like he's got a pretty palpable dislike for whatever boats he's indeed thinking of...

[surfmachine]

I agree with Rebel heart, its the quality of the captain and crew that is vital for blue water work!
Keith.

[GordMay]

For reviews of some boats Kretschmer liked, see the “Used Boat Notebook” (Sailing Magazine) ~ by John Kretschmer
➥ Sailing Magazine | Site Index

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day all,

Not sure that it is relevant, but according to the Sep Latitude 38, two boats had to be abandonded in this years "Puddle Jump": both were Westsail-32's.

Interesting...

Jim

Yes, interesting. And I have been tracing such cases and can tell you there have been plenty.

But I would not jump to early conclusions.

One explanation can be that there are relatively many heavy displacement boats in the long range cruising club (because of urban legends and because of budget constraints).

Another explanation could be that many skippers on heavy classic boats do believe the boat will take care of them (which, IMHO, is BS).

Yet another explanation could be that ALL Wetsails are very old boats and let alone the hulls which are often overbuilt and strong, the equipment is pretty old and tired BEFORE the set off into the blue yonder .

(...)

But I do confirm that there are surprisingly many accidents and abandons related to long keel, heavy hulls.

barnie

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by ROBERT G

In another reply you referenced "the boats that the author has owned," and this is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about. To which traditional designs, might you speculate, in particular, might he be referring? ..

I can't speak to what he doesn't like so much as what he does like. There was a day when I read everything he wrote. I think GordMay has a great link to some of his articles where he analyzes boats. I would start there.



"This oceangoing dynamo has a special place in the author’s history and heart Indulge me and try to understand—for me, the Contessa 32 is not just another fiberglass production boat. I cut my teeth on a Contessa 32,"

The Contessa 32 was his second boat (I think--the Bristol 27 his first), and he still likes her. He mentions her in the book the OP quoted. My recollection is that he's owned a couple of steel boats since then.

As point out here, I think it might be safe to say that that the Westsail epitimizes the kind of full keel boat he doesn't like. I would guess that Bob Perry's Tayana, Toshiba, etc., that line of thinking would be more to JK's liking if he were to like a full keel boat, but that's a pure guess on my part.

[Hiracer]

Here is JK on the Baba 30.
Sailing Magazine | Baba 30

Cabo Rico 38, a traditional design
Sailing Magazine | Cabo Rico 38


Compare the tone of those reviews to his beloved Contessa 32. No comparison.
Sailing Magazine | Contessa 32


Here is his review of his Bristol 27, a full keel boat where he understands her faults but still loves her.
http://www.sailingmagazine.net/compo...nt/article/556



More reviews: Sailing Magazine | Article Archive Personally, I think this is a real treasure trove of opinions from a guy who knows a thing or two about the subject.




In his review of the Caliber 33 he again emphasizes the importance of boat motion:

"The flat forefoot can occasionally pound in a chop but overall the boat has soft motion, which is among the most important features for any cruising boat."
Sailing Magazine | Caliber 33

JK on internal ballast: "The battle about whether internal or external ballast is better continues to rage. I like internal ballast."
http://www.sailingmagazine.net/compo...nt/article/558

[rebel heart]

It's worth noting that if you put 10 delivery captains in a room you'd have 11 opinions.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by rebel heart

It's worth noting that if you put 10 delivery captains in a room you'd have 11 opinions.

Agreed, and each one of their opinons is worth more than some bay daysailor.

In my experience of listening to delivery captains, there are certain threads that run common through their opinions, and it's those common threads that I pay special attention to.

I've never spoken to a delivery captain who liked a boat that beat him up. None like boats that can't go to the windward very well. None like boats that are real wet to sail. None like boats that get squirrely to drive when the wind pipes up. None like cheap construction.

I once listened to a delivery captian extoll the virtues of some heavy displacement boat (I forget which) and in the next breath rave with praise about delivering a J boat. Some don't really care a whit about design, only about how well the design deliverys performance. That's kind of where I got the idea that type casting boat designs into performance boxes is a a bit tricky.

[sailson]

I'd like to sit-in on a get together discussing this topic between John K. and Larry Pardey. That would be interesting.

Sailson

[Hiracer]

I once spoke with delivery captain in Alaska. He delivered primarily motor boats, commerical boats in the 45' to 100' range, from Seattle to Seward or the reverse. These were usually in the off season, say October or March. That trip includes what is normally a three-day crossing (for a sailboat) across the Gulf of Alaska (Sitka to Seward). The motor boats travel much faster than a sailboat and can do the crossing in a fraction of the time.

So what.

I was floored when he told me he would much rather do that crossing in a little sailboat like mine, at the time a Wauquiez 33. He said he weather predictions out there were not worth crap and that he felt significantly safer with all that lead underneath him. That really surprised me.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by sailson

I'd like to sit-in on a get together discussing this topic between John K. and Larry Pardey. That would be interesting.

I have spoken to a sailor who watched the Pardeys outsail a number of boats going from Vancouver to Victoria in light air. Apparently, their little boat can put up a cloud of sail and move in light air, much to the surprise of the beneteau/hunter/catalina crowd.

But, yes, that would be an interesting discussion.

[Hiracer]

Here's another guy who has an opinion I think is worth listening to. John Neal.

Mahina Expedition - Offshore Cruising Instruction

Funny, even John Neal considers the Contessa 32 a classic blue water boat, albeit small.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

I have spoken to a sailor who watched the Pardeys outsail a number of boats going from Vancouver to Victoria in light air. Apparently, their little boat can put up a cloud of sail and move in light air, much to the surprise of the beneteau/hunter/catalina crowd.

It may be another urban legend.

In light airs the light boat beats the heavier one hands down.

Skippers' skills may play a role in this case, but just to some extent - remember a heavy full hull will roll much more than a flat and beamy one - and it will shake off any wind there might be while the more (initially) stable light marina queen will keep on going with little breeze.

Remember the Pardeys had no engine, so they HAD to sail and that's what they did. The Hunter guy will just furl the main away and start the engine.

Just imagine what would have happened if it had been the Pardeys in the Bene and the other skippers in a Hess ... who would out sail whom then, you think?

;-)))
b.