Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-02-2010, 02:34   #1
Registered User
 
Scare_Rab's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Otautahi, Aotearoa
Boat: Alan Pape. Ebbtide 33'
Posts: 104
Images: 5
John Vigor's 'The Offshore Seaworthy Sailboat'

The original post by Scare_Rab potentially contained too much information from John Vigor's book to sit comfortably in this forum without a risk of breaking copyright laws. I have therefore taken the step to re-write this post and modify couple of others in this thread with an alternative. So these words are my interpretation of Scare_Rab intent. The alternative would be to delete the thread but that would be a shame as the subject is one that warrants discussion,

Pete


In John Vigors book, Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat: A Guide to Essential Features, Handling, and Gear, he rates yachts as follows:

60 = most seaworthy --- to 242 (least seaworthy)

100 or less = possible
101 – 130 maybe
131 + ? waste no more time here

Have others read the book and how did you score your yacht? Do you agree with the way he has tried to calculate seaworthyness or is there a better way?

By the way John's book is available directly from his own bookstore if individuals are interested in reading it:

http://www.johnvigor.com/Bookstore.html
__________________

__________________
Scare_Rab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 06:42   #2
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,573
Images: 14
I have a copy in front of me, good clear advice and an easy read. The score for seaworthyness balances the boat and the crews experience.

We managed a score of 98 for our Moody 31, more down to the way she was designed and built which avoids possible problems, rather than the traditional view of long keel etc.

A good chapter on heavy weather sailing as the author takes the reader through ever increasing wind speeds and discusses tactics.

For those with 20,000 blue water miles probably not for you. For those thinking of moving from coastal sailing to more adventurous stuff then yes worth a read. Also for those thinking of buying, some very good points to look out for when viewing a potential purchase.

The back cover gives a retail price of $18.95, why is Amazon trying to sell new copies for 119?

Pete
Attached Images
 
__________________

__________________
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 10:04   #3
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
TaoJones's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montrose, Colorado
Posts: 9,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
The back cover gives a retail price of $18.95, why is Amazon trying to sell new copies for 119?
That is not an Amazon asking price, it is a reseller who apparently feels his hardcover copy in new condition is worth that amount. If the reseller has the only currently available, new, hardcover copy of an out-of-print book, there may indeed be someone willing to pay that price.

Amazon will sell you a paperback copy of the same book (list price $18.95) for $12.89, so take your pick.

TaoJones
__________________
"Your vision becomes clear only when you look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks within, awakens."
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)
TaoJones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 10:20   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Duluth,Minnesota
Boat: Lindenberg 26 & Aloha 8.2
Posts: 984
Way too subjective to be much value,i just ran the numbers on my Lindenberg 26 and scored 96 which is pretty good for an old MORC racer but this questionair places way too much value on things that dont contribute to seaworthiness,for example cockpit size is irrelevant as long as it drains fast,i have a fairly small cockpit well but also have 2x2"drains through the transom well above the waterline which are large by most standards but if i were preparing to cross oceans i would lengthen the well all the way to the transom and cut the back out,now i have a larger more comfortable cockpit that drains in seconds not minutes,i just sold a boat that had 2x 1.25" drains that merged into 1 x 1.5" ball valve through the hull, self draining? sure but, slow so seaworthy? hell no but it would score a 1 on Johns list. Companionway washboards? If yes you get a 1,so a Catalina 30 which has an enormous opening with exagerated angles todrop them in to so they only need to lift a little and they will fall out,the sides need to have only a small angle so you need to lift them a long way to remove them and very few washboards will withstand a good wave from astern,none of the 1/2" plywood, plexiglass or uhmwpe which are common on coastal cruisers are seaworthy so there is a lot more to it than Washboards = seaworthy, hinged doors = unseaworthy.Apparently a solid glass hull = good,a core = not so good,Ok,using my lindenberg as an example, i scored it a 1 because it is MOSTLY solid glass but some actual engineering was involved which resulted in a core being used in the big flat areas above the waterline only, from the bow back to amidship where the hull develops enough compound curvature to not need it.This is a better build as a lot of smaller boats oilcan in these sections and would require additional reinforcement before going offshore.
Steve.
__________________
clockwork orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2010, 02:53   #5
Registered User
 
marc2012's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: abbeville la
Boat: seawind II Patience
Posts: 542
My Seawind II did not score too well & usually considered seaworthy.marc
__________________
marc2012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2010, 01:39   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Galway
Boat: Offshore 8 metre
Posts: 48
Images: 6
I thought the test was an interesting exercise but as in all these matters, the experience and common sense of the skippper outweighs pretty much most other factors to a degree that a good skipp will usually make it home safely in a tub, a duffer will wreck a good boat.
__________________
west coast Ireland family sailing
http://nigheandonn.com
nigheandonn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2010, 11:55   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
I think Vigor's book is a good read. He is opinionated, and has his likes and dislikes. (like the rest of us) I would consider what he says as good advice, but maybe not sailing gospel. For example, he does things in storms that perhaps I would not. But I have not done 25K miles, he has.
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-02-2010, 12:32   #8
Registered User
 
FloridaWriter's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Maitland, FL
Boat: Bristol 29
Posts: 230
It 's a very good book for preparing your boat for offshore work and sailing offshore..lots of tips and useful information. Very pragmatic. My Birstol scores a 76 and is on his list of seaworthy boats.
__________________
David www.bristol29.com
"The lookout that first sights the cat shall have ten guineas and remission of sins, short of mutiny, sodomy, or damaging the paintwork." - Jack Aubrey
FloridaWriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2010, 14:11   #9
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
these types of things, just simply encapsulate the authors viewpoints thats all. its not a standardised process. Best ignored in my opinion.
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2010, 15:12   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
bstreep's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX/Port Aransas, TX
Boat: 1990 Macintosh 47, "Merlin"
Posts: 2,274
Seriously? Not a single line for size or displacement? You kidding me? I get no bonus for 47 feet - over 40 feet of waterline, versus a Catalina 27? This is so subjective. Pinging me for rod rigging? And only 1 versus 2 for a keel stepped mast. Whatever.
__________________
Bill Streep
San Antonio/Port Aransas, TX
bstreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2010, 15:28   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
bstreep's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX/Port Aransas, TX
Boat: 1990 Macintosh 47, "Merlin"
Posts: 2,274
OK, just for the heck of it. Ran a buddy's Catalina 27 versus our Macintosh 47. Now, the one caveat is that I can't read ALL of what's in the first post - looks like a couple of lines missing:

Catalina 27: 90
Macintosh 47: 97

That is a 3.5 ton boat versus a 20 ton boat. Right.
__________________
Bill Streep
San Antonio/Port Aransas, TX
bstreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-02-2010, 23:17   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
You are right of course Bill. There is no replacement for displacement. And LWL determines how big a breaking wave needs to be turtle a craft- given the captain knows what he is doing. I have the book in my library, but I have a half dozen of Lin and Larry's books. To quote "Whatever"
__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2010, 03:16   #13
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,573
Images: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I think Vigor's book is a good read. He is opinionated, and has his likes and dislikes. (like the rest of us) I would consider what he says as good advice, but maybe not sailing gospel. For example, he does things in storms that perhaps I would not. But I have not done 25K miles, he has.
Quite, what the author is asking you to do is consider a number of aspects of a boats design and construction. Note even boats that rate below 100 he only says "possible". I think the important bit is making the reader consider a whole host of different areas of the boat to see whether it is a suitable offshore cruiser. I'm still of the opinion that it warrants a good read fo those considering moving from coastal to offshore.

There will be those that insist on a long keeled hull as absolutely essential, the reality of course is there are very few now made. A walk aound the Southampton Boat Show probably one of the largest in Europe last September revealed that the majority of yachts were deep fin. Indeed the only one that I remember wasn't was the latest varient of the Folkboat. These are the boats being produced now, that we will be buying in years to come, and feature extensively in events like the ARC.

Would be interested to here what other comparable books folk would recommend.

Pete
__________________
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2010, 15:28   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Duluth,Minnesota
Boat: Lindenberg 26 & Aloha 8.2
Posts: 984
Anybody with the book know what the 1st line,Midsection and the 5th line,keel read as its just gobblygook in this thread.
Steve.
__________________
clockwork orange is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-02-2010, 21:27   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
s/v Beth's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Boat: Valiant 40 (1975)
Posts: 4,066
Say what Clockwork? Could you quote it and I will look it up. Pete- another book I like to read about seaworthy boats is the first edition "Used Boat Notebook" By Kretschemer.
I use the sailnet reviews for owner information, and if I am really interested I try to find out how many of them have sailed offshore for extended periods of time.
It turned out well, I really love and trust my Valiant...
__________________

__________________
s/v Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
10m Cooper Prowler - Seaworthy? denmanislander Powered Boats 18 25-10-2016 09:24
Boat brands that are not seaworthy? wannabesailing Monohull Sailboats 97 26-10-2015 19:59
Seafarer 45 Yawl - Seaworthy? OneEyedJack Monohull Sailboats 11 20-08-2010 07:22
Seaworthy for Channel Islands? reastnt Powered Boats 3 28-08-2009 11:40
What is Seaworthy? FreeMason Monohull Sailboats 24 28-08-2008 09:23



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.