John Vigor's 'The Offshore Seaworthy Sailboat'

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, boatgearguy.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You are crazy, Pete. I'm not too surprised, however, since this is coming from the same guy who used to cross the English Channel in a RIB (if I am correctly remembering the story) . . .

I seem to remember I was sat on the sofa listening to the wind rattle the windows whilst you were rounding Portland Bill in a Maelstrom

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You'll be quite all right. Need an extra crew?

Problem is a wee green and pleasant Isle to the West of us has captured my heart too,

Ireland

.

[boatgearguy]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, boatgearguy.

Thanks.

[boatman61]

Well my little 21ftr scored 91... so she's a definite possible...
The 'refit' should knock of a few of those points...

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Way too subjective to be much value,i just ran the numbers on my Lindenberg 26 and scored 96 which is pretty good for an old MORC racer but this questionair places way too much value on things that dont contribute to seaworthiness,for example cockpit size is irrelevant as long as it drains fast,i have a fairly small cockpit well but also have 2x2"drains through the transom well above the waterline which are large by most standards but if i were preparing to cross oceans i would lengthen the well all the way to the transom and cut the back out,now i have a larger more comfortable cockpit that drains in seconds not minutes,i just sold a boat that had 2x 1.25" drains that merged into 1 x 1.5" ball valve through the hull, self draining? sure but, slow so seaworthy? hell no but it would score a 1 on Johns list. Companionway washboards? If yes you get a 1,so a Catalina 30 which has an enormous opening with exagerated angles todrop them in to so they only need to lift a little and they will fall out,the sides need to have only a small angle so you need to lift them a long way to remove them and very few washboards will withstand a good wave from astern,none of the 1/2" plywood, plexiglass or uhmwpe which are common on coastal cruisers are seaworthy so there is a lot more to it than Washboards = seaworthy, hinged doors = unseaworthy.Apparently a solid glass hull = good,a core = not so good,Ok,using my lindenberg as an example, i scored it a 1 because it is MOSTLY solid glass but some actual engineering was involved which resulted in a core being used in the big flat areas above the waterline only, from the bow back to amidship where the hull develops enough compound curvature to not need it.This is a better build as a lot of smaller boats oilcan in these sections and would require additional reinforcement before going offshore.
Steve.

Our washboards on our old sadler were 18mm macralon in s/s slides and I would like to see the sea that could break 18mm of macralon it is actualy bullet proof as tested by the british sas. I think the cabin sides would break first.

[atmartin]

I don't have the book in front of me, but Vigor prefaces that 'test' saying something like: "this is for monohulled boats 25' to 40' with no extreme design characteristics"

The first few questions are about keel/rudder configurations, beam, cockpit size and freeboard and are much more heavily weight than later questions (10 pts for fin keel, 10 points for spade rudder). Many boats are probably scoring lower (better) because readers are skipping those questions due to formatting issues. I think the lowest possible score is supposed to be 60.

Anyhow, Vigor's bias is clear. However, I think he has some company in advocating more traditional keels/designs for smallish boats. The rules change with scale and I doubt even Vigor would advocate a full keel on a 50-footer.

[bstreep]

Originally Posted by bstreep

OK, just for the heck of it. Ran a buddy's Catalina 27 versus our Macintosh 47. Now, the one caveat is that I can't read ALL of what's in the first post - looks like a couple of lines missing:

Catalina 27: 90
Macintosh 47: 97

That is a 3.5 ton boat versus a 20 ton boat. Right.

Just thought this needed a re-post. I LIKE the thought behind his calculations - but seriously?

[atmartin]

Being generous, I scored a Catalina 27 (a boat I'm somewhat familiar with) with an gas outboard 131. Many of the questions are related to equipment, which would vary on a boat this old. Catalina's were weakly equipped from the factory, but upgrades may have been made. Assuming perfect condition from factory, topping lift, no blisters, no leaks , etc, I came up with 131, which is right above Vigor's cut off for 'not worth it'. In fact, the book has a section on a Cat27 "Juggernaut" upgraded for a circumnavigation, making it very clear that extensive work was required.

The sailor who did the upgrades and made the trip said something along the lines of only doing it in the Catalina because 'that's what I had at the time' and that he wouldn't want to do it in one again.

[FecklessDolphin]

I just finished reading the entire book and found it informative and well-written. It also helped satisfy my longing for sailing during a Minnesota winter. I think the value of the test is not the score, but the 100 or so questions about specific aspects of your boat as well as about your skills/experience. This from a lake sailor with open-ocean aspirations. And I got it from Amazon for $12.95 plus shipping.

[Vega1860]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Seriously? Not a single line for size or displacement? You kidding me? I get no bonus for 47 feet - over 40 feet of waterline, versus a Catalina 27? This is so subjective. Pinging me for rod rigging? And only 1 versus 2 for a keel stepped mast. Whatever.

See "Titanic". Also "Edmund Fitzgerald"

Size has nothing to do with seaworthiness.

[Vega1860]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

Sorry guys a little brain dead yesterday. As I look at the OP, your question makes perfect sense.
Midsection: slack bilges, V shaped hull narrow hull =1, fuller bilges with rounding about waterline and wider hull=3, finally planning hull with teardrop keel =5
Keel: full with cutout forward =1, Partial with skeg and rudder attached =3 Fin with isolated rudder=10 (ie modern Bene)

Great! Factoring those in makes Lealea's score 62. (Or my math could be off)

But she is one of Vigor's 20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere.

[bstreep]

Originally Posted by Vega1860

See "Titanic". Also "Edmund Fitzgerald"

Size has nothing to do with seaworthiness.

In both cases, the ships were sunk by hitting something BIG: an iceberg and the bottom. If I had a choice between being at sea in a storm I'd certainly choose a liner designed for the North Atlantic or a bulk carrier built for Lake Superior, than my boat or any other boat under 50 feet...

[Pblais]

Have others read the book and how did you score your yacht? Do you agree with the way he has tried to calculate seaworthyness

I think the ideas are more important than the scores. From the start each issue scored has some subjectivity to it and then we get to relative importance of one to the other. This one is no worse than any other I've seen. Scores and the plethora of ratios are a way to look at boats and maybe discuss them one issue at a time. I'm just not at all convinced you can compute the perfect boat. To that extent I find the whole scoring system presumptuous and arbitrary. The scoring is asserted and then we get to go on and on how it works. yes, you end up with numerical scores but when it comes down to it you'll never need or use it to make a purchase decision. Talking boat scores and ratios is for folks that want to pretend to buy a boat.

There is a strong desire to over simplify the process of evaluating of vessels. There must be an easy way yields a lot of easy ways. Are you surprised? New members have an overwhelming fear that they will buy "the wrong boat". They want to treat boats like automobiles. Land vehicles are by comparison are almost all the same and they all move down the road with a similarity that makes the differences insignificant. What is left is mostly styling and cup holders. Wanting the same approach for boats just won't work.

We had a member about 4 years ago that spent 3 years computing the perfect boat. He tracked down all the vendors had volumes of research. He attended about 8 major boat shows and got paralyzed with data overload. I met him at the Annapolis boat show since he had posted here a lot and thought it might be interesting to sit down and talk over lunch. It turned out I met him about 4 months before he really bought a boat.

He finally reached the point where he had to throw out all the research. He ended up buying a Valiant from the factory that was returned. He got a deal on it and I think a good boat. He wanted a deal more than he wanted to compute the perfect boat. He might have needed that long arduous journey to get there but it's easy to see he spent a whole lot of money and agony just to sit down at the table on a boat deal.

[nv5l]

I read it, and although the beginning was sorta interesting, there was absolutely nothing new except for his fantasy heavy sailing story -- I think his advise to cut loose a Jordan Series Drogue once it get too rough and surf down monster waves a la Moitessier, was rather bizarre.

I think he's just trying to sell books.

[s/v Beth]

Yeah I thought the heavy weather part was interesting. But he has been there and done that. So until I have the miles that he has I will reserve judgement.