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Old 14-12-2010, 22:40   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Captaingeo, your point reveals the inconsistency of your argument and shows the issue. You complain about sailboats sailing across your bow chanting right of way ( ie their the stand on vessel) yet you want the rules obeyed to the end. I was arguing that sailboats in the main should not put you or themselves in that position and I beleive the rules support that view that even as the stand on vessel the sailboat skipper must act to avoid collision and that does not include closing on a large ship. Whereas the opposite is true if the other give way vessel is small.

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RE BOLD: Huh? Where did you get that from me? I'll be the first to say the "Rules" are only a guideline and common senses the REAL rule of the road!
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Old 14-12-2010, 22:48   #107
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Originally Posted by SvenG View Post
It didn't make sense to me either.

I think you meant to say something quite different.



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No, I didn't mean to say anything else. I did mean to say that this is a situation which I believe is avoidable and I would try to avoid if possible.

- A risk of collision exists
- I am the stand on vessel
- The give way vessel is something large, fast and not particularly maneuverable
- I have no indication of whether he is aware of my presence or not.
- I have no indication of what his intentions are.


You'd be happy there would you? You wouldn't think that something was amiss?
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Old 14-12-2010, 22:51   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
No, I didn't mean to say anything else. I did mean to say that this is a situation which I believe is unavoidable and I would try to avoid if possible.

- A risk of collision exists
- I am the stand on vessel
- The give way vessel is something large, fast and not particularly maneuverable
- I have no indication of whether he is aware of my presence or not.
- I have no indication of what his intentions are.


You'd be happy there would you? You wouldn't think that something was amiss?
Sorry but you aren't making sense.


EDIT Ok you changed "unavoidable" to "avoidable" but that doesn't make it much better.

Let's just agree that we took different logic courses in school. /EDIT



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Old 14-12-2010, 22:54   #109
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Sorry but you aren't making sense.



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?? What bit don't you get?
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Old 14-12-2010, 22:55   #110
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Obviously, two of you are living in different universes.
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Old 14-12-2010, 22:56   #111
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Originally Posted by SvenG View Post
Let's just agree that we took different logic courses in school. /EDIT



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OK

,,,,,,,
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Old 15-12-2010, 00:03   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Captaingeo, your point reveals the inconsistency of your argument and shows the issue. You complain about sailboats sailing across your bow chanting right of way ( ie their the stand on vessel) yet you want the rules obeyed to the end.
But the rules do say that no matter what, who, where, when or why - all, I say again ALL vessels have the duty and obligation to (shall) avoid collisions at all costs!!!! You make it sound as if the rules will just lead to you down a path of doom like a runaway train about to fly over a missing bridge and then abandon you when it's too late. Hell, the Navigation Rules have a rule that tells you to ignore all of the other rules if necessary to avoid a collision!! How can it be any clearer???!!! You think that taking action to avoid collision in an extreme situation is a tossing out of the rules. Quite the contrary, the rules themselves allow you to make a departure (not throw out) from the other rules to avoid a collision. If you have had to do this, you are still following the rules. Standing-on right up until a collision is a major violation (and pretty dumb) along with never giving-way, no matter if either vessel is a 965' container ship with a professional crew or a weekend warrior with his first boat.

Quote:
I was arguing that sailboats in the main should not put you or themselves in that position and I believe the rules support that view that even as the stand on vessel the sailboat skipper must act to avoid collision and that does not include closing on a large ship. Whereas the opposite is true if the other give way vessel is small.

Dave
Your attitude is to use the rules when they are convenient to you. That is what I and many other professionals have a problem with.


The Navigation Rules are not simply guidelines or a simple list of things you gotta do, each of which can be taken individually. They are a series of lawful obligations that depending on what type of vessel you are, where you are, where you're going and what kind of environment you're operating in, promote and attempt to add order with the ultimate goal of preventing collisions. The rules interact with each other, even spanning different Parts - sometimes this applies; other times, that applies. You can't just look at or memorize one section of the steering and sailing rules or just one set of lights and then consider your proficiency as "good enough." If you're serious about trying to further your seamanship and piloting, your ability to handle heavy traffic and the confidence to conduct your vessel properly in the most trying of circumstances when it comes to traffic, poor visibility, night-time running, etc - you HAVE to learn the Nav Rules. There is simply no other way around it. Read, study and hopefully memorize the entire book - the introductions, the application, definitions - literally, Rule 1 through Rule 37. Hell, I still flip through it every now and then.

In addition to some navigation, the Navigation Rules portion of a USCG Deck Officer License Exam is the only module that requires at least a 90% to pass and it is the only exam where absolutely no reference materials are allowed. Professionals are expected to know this stuff cold. You could theoretically flip through Bowditch and "reteach" yourself navigation right there in the exam room, but that lack of intimate knowledge with regards to the Nav Rules can simply not be tolerated and for very good reason. There is no time to flip through a rules book when 10 vessels are converging on you at 20 knots.

Again, in my experience with deep-sea shipping and towing, the problem is not with the rules themselves. The problem is with ignorance in regard to the rules and rumors flung about all over the web and in "safety classes" (such as the "sailing vessels are always the stand-on" or the confusion over the phrase "right of way" earlier in this very thread) with regards to what actually is a lawful operation of any vessel including not only who is stand-on or give-way, but the obligation required of BOTH vessels, not just the give-way.


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Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
Not a great example. Meeting a large ship there would invoke Rule 9 - Narrow Channels. And Rule 9b would preclude most of us here on this forum of being the stand on vessel.

A bit picky I know - sorry

The original point I was trying to make is that I try really hard not to ever be in a situation where I am the stand on vessel when a large container ship or the like is involved.

I believe that it is an entirely avoidable situation in all but a few very exceptional circumstances.
This is perfectly fine. Most people prefer to do this and I encourage it. I do not consider that a breaking of the Nav Rules since if there is never a Risk of Collision, then there is never a meeting, crossing or overtaking and accordingly, never a give-way or stand-on vessel.

What I don't encourage is when you or somebody else does get into one of those "exceptional circumstances" that they think it's okay to just say "screw the rules" and then do something unpredictable. That's the confusion that makes us aboard that "large container ship or the like", cringe.
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Old 15-12-2010, 00:51   #113
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To Stand On or Not

How it works in my universe:

A sailing vessel is adhering to Rule 5 and spots a power-driven vessel. The sailing vessel uses a series of compass bearings (and MARPA and AIS and all available means appropriate) to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

The sailing vessel determines that a risk of collision may exist, but can’t be sure. Rule 7 states that if there is doubt, then a risk of collision is deemed to exist.

Due to the fact that one is a sailing vessel and the is a power-driven vessel, under Rule 18, the power vessel is required to keep out of the way of the sailing vessel.

Under Rule 16 this makes the power vessel the give-way vessel

Under Rule 17a(i) the sailing vessel is required to keep course and speed.

Rule 16 requires the power vessel to take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

If he does, Colregs are satisfied and a risk of collision no longer exists. This is an opportunity to avoid a collision and it remains with the give way vessel right up until the point of collision.

If the give way vessel doesn’t take any action, Colregs allow the stand on vessel to take action (by manoeuvre alone) under 17b.

If he does, Colregs are satisfied and a risk of collision no longer exists. This is another opportunity to avoid a collision and this opportunity remains with the stand on vessel right up until the point of actual collision.

Furthermore, once the two vessels get really close (so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone), The stand on vessel assumes the right to use further measures (in addition to manoeuvre alone) to avoid collision.

What I take from this is that if a risk of collision exists:
- Both the stand on and give way vessels have opportunity to take action to avoid a collision
- That opportunity exists over a significant period of time for both vessels (assuming Rule 5 is was satisfied initially).
- Neither vessel has ‘right of way’ at any time
- The stand on vessel is not required to stand on indefinitely
- The stand on vessel is not required to stand on until the situation described in 17b arises.
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Old 15-12-2010, 01:04   #114
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What I don't encourage is when you or somebody else does get into one of those "exceptional circumstances" that they think it's okay to just say "screw the rules" and then do something unpredictable. That's the confusion that makes us aboard that "large container ship or the like", cringe.
I'm not saying screw the rules - far from it. I think the rules give ample opportunity for both vessels to avoid collision - see above post.

Sincere question - what do you mean by something unpredictable? I'd guess stand on vessels turning into give way vessels would be a 'whoaaa' moment. Anything else that gets us the WAFI nickname?
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Old 15-12-2010, 05:28   #115
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If this thread does not prove why maritime law is a profitable business, I don't know what would.
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Old 15-12-2010, 06:25   #116
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If this thread does not prove why maritime law is a profitable business, I don't know what would.
ROFLMAO, and so very correct. I am still getting out of the bludi way!

Go ahead, and stay stand on if you wish but me common sense indicator tell me to move at some point.........i2f
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Old 15-12-2010, 06:45   #117
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Old 15-12-2010, 07:57   #118
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What I take from this is that if a risk of collision exists:
- Both the stand on and give way vessels have opportunity to take action to avoid a collision
- That opportunity exists over a significant period of time for both vessels (assuming Rule 5 is was satisfied initially).
- Neither vessel has ‘right of way’ at any time
- The stand on vessel is not required to stand on indefinitely
- The stand on vessel is not required to stand on until the situation described in 17b arises.
This I agree with. "significant period of time" may not always apply but that's the only nit I have.



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Old 15-12-2010, 08:47   #119
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In the SF bay were the average depth for the entire bay is 15 feet, large vessels are forced to stay within deeeper channels, and they must maintain a speed of at least 5 knots to provide steerage. They always have the right of way!
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Old 15-12-2010, 10:51   #120
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In the SF bay were the average depth for the entire bay is 15 feet, large vessels are forced to stay within deeeper channels, and they must maintain a speed of at least 5 knots to provide steerage. They always have the right of way!
Must be really interesting when they meet or overtake each other.


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