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Old 14-12-2010, 18:05   #91
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nigel1

You have described bridge situations that in real life don't exist. In most cases big ship radars struggle to differentiate sailing vessels from wave clutter. The sailing vessel has too ALWAYS act that he hasn't been detected unless he received positive confirmation . To act otherwise is foolish.

In real life and backed by many accident reports bridges are poorly manned, bad bridge and resource management abound, incorrect radar usage etc etc ( read several MAIB reports) the second thing is
That most modern OOW's have no comprehension of the issues in sailing a all craft and rarely factor it in properly to their thinking.

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Modern radars can distinguish between a small boston whaler and a 30 foot sailboat. i use 2 radars on a 300 foot boat every day,,,, what the radar can not do is give the operator experience and professionalism,,, if the radar is tuned in properly for the weather conditions that radar can and will show the vessels, it is hte experience of the operator that matters
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Old 14-12-2010, 18:14   #92
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they will not avoid you--is you to avoid them as they ae NOT as maneuverable as are you. tack be damned.
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Old 14-12-2010, 18:40   #93
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What I can't get my head around is why I would chose to get myself into a situation where:
- A risk of collision exists
- I am the stand on vessel
- The give way vessel is something large, fast an not particularly manouverable
- I have no indication of whether he is aware of my presence or not.
- I have no indication of what his intentions are.

This is not a situation that just pops up out of the blue. It is a completely avoidable situation.
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Old 14-12-2010, 19:51   #94
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Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
What I can't get my head around is why I would chose to get myself into a situation where:
- A risk of collision exists
- I am the stand on vessel
- The give way vessel is something large, fast an not particularly manouverable
- I have no indication of whether he is aware of my presence or not.
- I have no indication of what his intentions are.

This is not a situation that just pops up out of the blue. It is a completely avoidable situation.
I know what you mean but have to point out that we don't all sail in the same waters. In water where there is lots of traffic and lots of channels and islands, for instance, a situation can develop very quickly that you have no way of predicting.
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Old 14-12-2010, 20:10   #95
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Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
What I can't get my head around is why I would chose to get myself into a situation where:
- A risk of collision exists
Because you would never get on the water if you only sail when there are no other boats ?

Quote:
- I am the stand on vessel
You always sail on port tack, overtaking or doing something else to make the other vessel the stand on vessel ?

Quote:
- The give way vessel is something large, fast an not particularly manouverable
How do you control the speed, size and maneuverability of all the other vessels ?

Quote:
- I have no indication of whether he is aware of my presence or not.
So you also control the awareness of all other skippers ?

Quote:
- I have no indication of what his intentions are.
How do you make sure s/he makes his intentions clear to you ?

Quote:
This is not a situation that just pops up out of the blue. It is a completely avoidable situation.
Sorry but the strawman argument you are trying to propose is logically flawed.



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Old 14-12-2010, 20:30   #96
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I live in Hong Kong. According to the Marine Department, 33,160 international vessels visited in 2009. That's about one every 15 minutes. Add to that the coastal traffic (my guess would be double that amount) and the high speed ferries, the local shipping etc etc. Hong Kong is without a doubt one of the busiest waterways in the world.

I've been sailing here since 1997 and I honestly cannot recall a single time I was in the situation I mentioned above.
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Old 14-12-2010, 20:42   #97
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Originally Posted by SvenG View Post
Because you would never get on the water if you only sail when there are no other boats ?

You always sail on port tack, overtaking or doing something else to make the other vessel the stand on vessel ?

How do you control the speed, size and maneuverability of all the other vessels ?

So you also control the awareness of all other skippers ?

How do you make sure s/he makes his intentions clear to you ?

Sorry but the strawman argument you are trying to propose is logically flawed.



-Sven
What a bizzare interpretation of the situation I describe
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Old 14-12-2010, 20:49   #98
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What a bizzare interpretation of the situation I describe
It didn't make sense to me either.

I think you meant to say something quite different.



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Old 14-12-2010, 20:51   #99
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VHF is generally only used when there is confusion or someone wants to do something out of the ordinary - 95% of the time, commercial vessels just follow the rules with no need to make a radio call.
This claim is not consonant with my experience. Offshore, I've often found that ships are appreciative of contact. They often chat with each other in such situations, and most seem relieved when a yacht is able to communicate (or query) intent in a professional manner.

An example: I was offshore in dense fog, traveling north, when radar revealed a large northbound radar target on the 12-mile range. Within five minutes, he had closed to within six nm. I was clearly the stand-on vessel, but was not certain he could see me on radar.

Here's the conversation we had:

Me: I am a northbound sailboat at ((position)), and have a ship closing on my position from 6nm due south. Please communicate your intentions.

Him: I am the Russian Container Vessel ((name)). I intent to leave you to port.

Me: Thank you, Skipper. I was not certain you could see me on radar.

Him: You are a target on all three radars.

Me: I am glad to hear it. I am altering course ten degrees to port.

Him: Thank you skipper. Fair winds and a safe voyage.
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Old 14-12-2010, 21:07   #100
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Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
I live in Hong Kong. According to the Marine Department, 33,160 international vessels visited in 2009. That's about one every 15 minutes. Add to that the coastal traffic (my guess would be double that amount) and the high speed ferries, the local shipping etc etc. Hong Kong is without a doubt one of the busiest waterways in the world.

I've been sailing here since 1997 and I honestly cannot recall a single time I was in the situation I mentioned above.
Like I said, not all water is the same. Active Pass in BC is about 500 meters at he narrowest point. You could be in 6 knots of current on any given day. The tidal range can be 15 feet so it goes through a lot of change a few times a day. 200 ton ferries go through at maybe 15 knots and exit out around a blind point on the southwest side. They do lean on the horn. There's a lot of traffic through there.

Active Pass, BC, Canada - Google Maps
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Old 14-12-2010, 21:13   #101
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Bash, I'm assuming the ship was overtaking you (both of you going in the same general direction). Edit: after rereading your message, I see that you were.
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Old 14-12-2010, 21:44   #102
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Captaingeo, your point reveals the inconsistency of your argument and shows the issue. You complain about sailboats sailing across your bow chanting right of way ( ie their the stand on vessel) yet you want the rules obeyed to the end. I was arguing that sailboats in the main should not put you or themselves in that position and I beleive the rules support that view that even as the stand on vessel the sailboat skipper must act to avoid collision and that does not include closing on a large ship. Whereas the opposite is true if the other give way vessel is small.

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Old 14-12-2010, 22:10   #103
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Anyone who has stood a watch on the bridge of an LCC or VLCC and tried to see dead ahead over the bow will realize that within about 2 miles there is NO visibility of traffic ahead. Watermann has it right... be bloody careful out there, let folks know well in advance what your intentions are either by radio or course change, make sure your radar is equipped with an EBL and know your position and be able to transmit it clearly to other vessels particularly at night and/or in fog. Knowing the Col/Regs is important and being able to read and understand Seperation Zones and other chart notations is critical. It ain't all that hard. The worst case of miscommunication I recall was in Puget Sound one night when a tug towing a black oil barge on a long tow tried to raise a sailboat under sail to warn him away when the towboat skipper, to his horror, saw the sailboat cut across the stern of his tow boat and was run down under the barge. I think 3 or 4 folks lost their lives that night. Stay safe out there... Capt Phil
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Old 14-12-2010, 22:10   #104
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Lodesman. Your definition of impede is not correct , it has been interpreted to mean not cause a change of speed or direction in particular cases see overtaking etc. You might also try arguing your case with various harbour police when you force a course or speed change in a ship in a "narrow" channel or fairway !!

Secondly I never said the steering ruled don't apply. If you break the impede rule and close on a collision course then of course they apply the rules are clear on that. What I pointed out is that in a TSS we ( sailors) loose the normal ability to ( interpreted by some) to blithely assume the stand on position. If so doing were likely to impede a ship in a TSS.


To other professional captains, my qualified comments about radar and bridge management were never meant to critics well run ships. But it is noticeable that in two serious ( one of which was fatal) collision incidents in recent times in the English channel ( the Pride of Bilbao incident and the Wahkuna one) the accident reports severely criticised the commercial vessels, all of which were modern supposedly well manned and run by seemingly good marine companies. In one case , i beleive, there was even a charge of manslaughter brought against the OOW ( which failed )
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Old 14-12-2010, 22:34   #105
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Like I said, not all water is the same. Active Pass in BC is about 500 meters at he narrowest point. You could be in 6 knots of current on any given day. The tidal range can be 15 feet so it goes through a lot of change a few times a day. 200 ton ferries go through at maybe 15 knots and exit out around a blind point on the southwest side. They do lean on the horn. There's a lot of traffic through there.

Active Pass, BC, Canada - Google Maps
Not a great example. Meeting a large ship there would invoke Rule 9 - Narrow Channels. And Rule 9b would preclude most of us here on this forum of being the stand on vessel.

A bit picky I know - sorry

The original point I was trying to make is that I try really hard not to ever be in a situation where I am the stand on vessel when a large container ship or the like is involved.

I believe that it is an entirely avoidable situation in all but a few very exceptional circumstances.
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