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Old 14-12-2010, 13:26   #76
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I disagree with the view that stand on vessels stand on. Firstly one should never stand on into danger. Secondly colregs do not absolve the stand on vessel from taking other actions if deemed necessary. Thirdly the colregs apply where the risk of collision exist. I ensure that I manoeuvre to avoid the risk of collision occurs.

Also the colregs does not give anyone the right of way

Dave
There you go right there. I am not going to stand on whenn I am getting no response via radia, or bow moving. I am not waiting until thier bow covers me, and I am not seen even with someone on the bridgedeck.

My incident between Cabo & Puerta Vallarta was nerve wracking waiting for a sign of life. Before the bow could line up with the bridge, and block the view of me. I made a sharp turn, so my bowlight could be seen. Seems like the same instant the bow swung in the opposite direction, and still no reply on the vhf............i2f
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:33   #77
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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
Forgive me for not being more precise in my silly mind... how about RAM?

The whole point of my post was REGARDLESS of the rules, the other skipper "pushed" the rules almost to the loss of his vessel; there was absolutely NOTHING I could have done to prevent the collision. Yes TECHNICALLY he was the stand-on vessel were we both small craft, BUT had he been ten seconds slower, there would have been a lot of plastic bits in my wake!
I agree with your second point - there's right and there's dead right! As I said there's a need for common-sense too.

But in discussing Da Rules we have to avoid adding erroneous information to an already confusing subject. Were you RAM? I'm not familiar with the term "pushboat" and had assumed you were rigidly connected. Few tugs are truly RAM and even fewer connected units are RAM. That would change the situation and the stand-on/give-way assignments - if you were RAM, did you display your shapes/lights and state that in your radio conversation?
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:39   #78
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Anything more than twice your size is RAM due to laws of physics, that is the whole point of the give way rules in COLREGS.
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:40   #79
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Suspect you have got the common sense stuff down pat. One suggestion: AIS!. I've made five crossings to BVI and AIS has come in handy every time. The immediate AIS report with speed, bearing and closure data is a whole lot quicker than trying to figure everything out on visual and radar views. Usually you have time to see, communicate and avoid.... but sometimes things happen way too fast. One dark night the the QEII was bearing down on us at 30 knots (according to the AIS). It could have become interesting if we had been depending on visual and radar alone. Oftenn (but I wouldn't bet my life on this one) the professionals on the bridge will have seen you and already changed course by the time you call them on channel 13... at least that has been my experience. Sometimes the english language skill aboard some of these commerical ships is somewhat lacking, so don't depend on your VHF to keep you out of trouble. Keep good watches and bear off a few degress until they pass has always been my rule.
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:47   #80
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
No not really as for us theres one important modification

"(j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane."

That removes the stand-on/giveway rules that we as sailing veseels enjoy as a result of our status and hence is of major impact. Impede has been determined to mean, cause a course or speed change.

Dave
That is not even remotely close to being correct.
Quote:
Rule 8(f)
    1. A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
    2. A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the rules of this part.
    3. A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.
I know the Colregs don't spell out the meaning of "impede", so look where's it's used - when a vessel is constrained by narrow channel/traffic lane and/or draught. "Don't impede" means don't force the vessel out of the lane or out of the deep water channel - if the large vessel is able to manoeuvre within that, then it shall do so as the give-way vessel. The small/sailing vessels are additionally required to avoid getting into a risk of collision with a not-to-be-impeded vessel, but where it's inevitable, the rules are very clear that steering and sailing rules apply.
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Old 14-12-2010, 13:50   #81
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
People talking about standing on ate missing the point. First large commercial vessels nearly always communicate their passing intentions by VHF,leisure boats don't.
No, they don't "nearly always". The COLREGS make absolutely no provision for radio communications. The U.S. Inland Rules do though (and even that has some provisions). This is not an oversight - there is logic behind it. I try to stay off the VHF as much as possible unless absolutely necessary. When communicating with foreign vessels, with a watch officer who may or may not be strong with English, making even "routine" meeting arrangements can result in near-disaster. "Starboard-to-starboard" is heard as "alter to starboard" etc... A much simpler way is to just follow the rules. I have had or overheard plenty of cases of mis-communication due to language barriers mostly, but (with a couple of exceptions) I have yet to have an encounter with a commercial vessel who, given the opportunity before me eagerly shouting on the radio, did not maneuver in accordance with the Rules . My VHF handset is always a couple steps away, but I always use it as a later resort - not the primary one.

In-port traffic is different. You have large vessels in relatively tight quarters, possible blind corners, mixes of traffic and a homogeneous group of crews and pilots with local knowledge, a common language and "local customs". VHF communications are heavily used (that is NOT to say that the rules are then just thrown out). But on the open sea or in high-traffic areas like Gibraltar, the English Channel, the BAM, Red Sea, etc. VHF arrangements are less frequently used for the reasons I stated above.

Quote:
To blithely stand on while getting closer and closer is the height of folly. People talking about predicability miss the point you may not have been seen. In the first place. IMHO unless you have verbal agreement I would never get into a close quarters situation ( except in fairways)
I'm not advocating to stand-on until you get hit. If a collision occurs, no party gets off scot-free. If you are at the point where a collision is imminent, the rules obligate you to take action to avoid collision. This is not optional. Believe me, I don't want anyone to play chicken with large vessels. I don't like seeing sailboats disappear underneath the bow and then waiting for what seems like hours to see them pop up on the other side, hopefully intact. What equally troubles me is when I have a plan in my head to go astern of this vessel, ahead of that one, meet that one port-to-port, etc all based on the Navigation Rules, only to have someone not hold up their end of the law and make a course change that places them in more danger than they were. I sometimes wonder if the stories I hear of cruisers "being maliciously run down by a ship" are merely cases like this.

Quote:
As I said manoeuvre when the risk doesn't exist and don't put yourself anywhere near these ships if at all possible.

Dave
Well, if you maneuver before a situation even exists then there is never a situation to worry about. I hope this is what most cruisers try to do - I certainly do it when I'm on a small boat. It's just not always possible though given geographical/traffic limits. I'm talking about situations where there is a clear risk of collision and each vessel is obligated by the rules to conduct themselves accordingly. The rules apply equally to all vessels.

The issue here is education. Too many sailors/boaters know only either "sailboats always have the right of way" (not at all true) or "always go astern of ships/commercial traffic." Both statements have their merits, but neither is 100% correct, 100% of the time.
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Old 14-12-2010, 14:01   #82
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I was surprised to see that it comes from a "real" press and that the book isn't just someone's fantasy self-publication.

"Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought:"
Tells you something about the audience. Apparently it was a sell-out last time it was available though. Maybe I'll bang out "How to install safety bumpers on your boom" tonight and see if they'll pick up the option on that one too?
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Old 14-12-2010, 14:03   #83
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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
Anything more than twice your size is RAM due to laws of physics, that is the whole point of the give way rules in COLREGS.
Actually the whole point of Colregs is to sort vessels by relative ability to manoeuvre - power gives way to sail, sail gives way to fishing, fishing gives way to NUC/RAM; large vessels are limited by depth of water and narrowness of the fairway. Big vessels are quite capable of manoeuvring, sometimes more so than sailing vessels that are constrained by the wind; when they are not there are rules that give them priority. Know the rules and follow the rules.
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Old 14-12-2010, 14:25   #84
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I also agree that the AIS makes it much easier to deal with big ships and the colregs. Offshore, I will pick up the ship's Class A signal well before he sees my Class B. If the AIS shows a CPA of less than a mile, I will tweak my course to open up the separation before he detects me, even if I end up being the stand on vessel.

This avoids the need for VHF communications in most cases, but in the 1% of situations which become sticky the AIS identification makes VHF contact much easier and more reliable. I disagree that using the VHF is to be avoided--knowing each other's intentions is an important safety tool--and I have heard bridge-to-bridge conversations on collision avoidance all over the world.

Inshore, the AIS information on a chartplotter gives you an idea of what the next course or speed change will be. Once a ship is in a marked channel or TSS, you should stay out of their way and stay out of the channel to the extent possible.
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Old 14-12-2010, 14:29   #85
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Nigel1

You have described bridge situations that in real life don't exist. In most cases big ship radars struggle to differentiate sailing vessels from wave clutter. The sailing vessel has too ALWAYS act that he hasn't been detected unless he received positive confirmation . To act otherwise is foolish.

In real life and backed by many accident reports bridges are poorly manned, bad bridge and resource management abound, incorrect radar usage etc etc ( read several MAIB reports) the second thing is
That most modern OOW's have no comprehension of the issues in sailing a all craft and rarely factor it in properly to their thinking.

Dave
Have you ever used a "big ship radar"? If setup properly, small vessels show up quite well, short of being lost in the sea clutter of a hurricane. The difference in smaller, less-powerful radar as compared to commercial units is actually quite large. There's a reason that a ship's radar system can typically cost $40,000.

As for bridge manning, that is an issue is some areas. U.S.-flagged ships have no less than two people on the bridge at all times. In pilotage waters, it can be no less than four, plus a lookout at the bow. I know there are other countries who still run one-man watches, but I just don't know how much that is done anymore. Tugs and supply boats may have one or two people up there too. BRM is heavily stressed today both at Academies and in continuing education. Integrated Bridge Systems have helped to reduce the workload on the individual watch officer and made the information presented more efficiently, but technology cannot replace experience and sound seamanship.

I will say (and I have said this before) that small vessels can be quite hard to see visually if there is a lot of glare or white foam on the water. Furthermore, at night, the smallest-on-the-market "1-nm rated" navigation lights are very poor. I would never run a serious vessel without fitting at least the next size up. Sailors also need to keep in mind any obstructions to their lights from their own vessel and how their heel may direct the lens-focused light away from the horizon. It doesn't take much to reduce their visibility considerably. So, before you go around bashing professional crews, keep in mind there are some things you just may not have taken into consideration.

I will somewhat agree with you on your last point, but at the same time will point out that even more small boat operators have nowhere near the comprehension of the maneuvering ability (both good and poor) of large vessels or how they are manned or operated. I work with many people who sail/boat on their off-time and also many who do not. I would love for more people to have the opportunity to ride a ship's bridge, but, unfortunately, the powers that be are making this harder and harder to do.
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Old 14-12-2010, 14:55   #86
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I also agree that the AIS makes it much easier to deal with big ships and the colregs. Offshore, I will pick up the ship's Class A signal well before he sees my Class B. If the AIS shows a CPA of less than a mile, I will tweak my course to open up the separation before he detects me, even if I end up being the stand on vessel.
There is no problem with doing this and if you can do this, (not only for commercial vessels), you will be better off. However, keep in mind how the rules define "vessels in sight of one another" and how in-sight vs. not-in-sight or restricted visibiliy affect your obligations under the rules.

Quote:
This avoids the need for VHF communications in most cases, but in the 1% of situations which become sticky the AIS identification makes VHF contact much easier and more reliable. I disagree that using the VHF is to be avoided--knowing each other's intentions is an important safety tool--and I have heard bridge-to-bridge conversations on collision avoidance all over the world.
VHF communications shouldn't be avoided at all cost. My point is that it is an aid to assist in safe navigation. The Navigation Rules are to be followed at all times and take ultimate precedence over VHF-made "passing arrangements." I try to avoid using the VHF due to all of the problems that it can create, some of which are worse than the initial risk of collision. Of course, if someone hails me I will answer and will never hesitate to hail if I feel it would be helpful. This was particularly true in the pre-AIS days when your best bet for hailing the correct vessel was by lat/lon, speed, course (taken from the radar/ARPA) or whatever else you could come up with to distinguish that vessel. When barreling down a crowded strait with four ships in a line beam-to-beam coming right at you, this presented a problem - however the COLREGS (if followed) avoid this confusion. AIS is a great tool, but it is still man-made technology, subject to the same fallacies and not everyone has it.

But, just as bad as radio silence, are the guys who lunge their way around, calling everybody within 5 miles of them and then just "making arrangements" that are exactly what the rules called for anyways. It can lead to confusion and clutters up the channel for more important communications. There have been plenty of "VHF-assisted" collisions.

Quote:
Inshore, the AIS information on a chartplotter gives you an idea of what the next course or speed change will be. Once a ship is in a marked channel or TSS, you should stay out of their way and stay out of the channel to the extent possible.
Yes, and that is essentially what the COLREGS Rules 9 and 10 obligate you to do. See? The rules do make sense, if you give them a chance.
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Old 14-12-2010, 15:18   #87
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I agree with your second point - there's right and there's dead right! As I said there's a need for common-sense too.

But in discussing Da Rules we have to avoid adding erroneous information to an already confusing subject. Were you RAM? I'm not familiar with the term "pushboat" and had assumed you were rigidly connected. Few tugs are truly RAM and even fewer connected units are RAM. That would change the situation and the stand-on/give-way assignments - if you were RAM, did you display your shapes/lights and state that in your radio conversation?
You are confusing a composite unit with a push/tug boat. A composite has a notch in the tow for the tug and is rigidly connected by a locking mechanism. A pushboat uses cables (breastlines, spiderbands, springlines, etc) and a padded bow or push knees.

Head barges are infinitely more maneuverable than a towed barge, but when in a channel that really only has about a third of its width at project depth (10') and you are just shy of 9' draft, you are most certainly restricted in your ability to maneuver. Coupled with a few thousand tons of deck load and its inertia; nothing happens fast. The distinction I believe you are looking for is CBD reflects us to not be able to operate outside the channel, RAM reflects our limited ability to maneuver WITHIN the channel. Similarly a vessel working aids to nav, cable, or diving operation is RAM because of its inability to maneuver immediately.

Yes we flew the shapes/lights for RAM and TOWING.
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:30   #88
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Well George that makes all the difference in the world. As someone said previously, the sailboat driver was a complete tosser.


BTW, I wasn't thinking specifically it was a composite unit, but meant to say I thought you were lashed hard to the barge - anyway thanks for the info about tugs/pushers.
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:44   #89
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The distinction can be difficult in words..... So here's some pix.

Moderators: I promise to stop drifting the thread (after this post)

Composite:


Pushboat:
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Old 14-12-2010, 17:52   #90
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WE CAN ALL ARGUE rules rules rules. in reality when you are in seaway in the dark and you see something coming on you--either identify yourself to them and gtf out of their way , or identify yourself and gtf out of their way. remember-- bigger than you cannot maneuver and has right of way in a shipping channel. i stay clear of those as much as possible. is difficult in the icw, but i dont know if my boat can get there, as i am deeper than most. when i was in gulf and in mobile bay and and didnt see how fast a larger ship was coming, i would wear ship until i could definitely sail abaft the big ship.
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