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Old 17-12-2010, 01:23   #181
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Watermann I offended by your crtitism of me. While I may be a semi professional. I do deliveries. I regard myself as professional as any OOW and in fact I am qualified under stcw95 to that standard.

My interpretation while not as suscintly put as "bewitched" was exactly as his and is based on a better understanding of the colregs then you have in my opinion

The fact is that rule 17b allows the skipped of the stand on vessel the sole responsibility to determine if the give way vessel is in fact not " giving way" and allowed him the freedom to manoeuvre in that case. That was a my point was about summed up as far as the small boat skipper was "do not stand on
Into danger " this is based on the colregs, a full understanding of them not a pick and choose

Dave
Dave, if I offended you, sorry. I have not meant to make this personal. My goal is not to belittle anyone, nor do I really care about paper credentials or "who's got the bigger license." IMO, it matters little. My "study the rules" rant wasn't even directed towards you, as you've obviously studied them. If you think that even all the "big ship guys" agree on this stuff, you'd be wrong. I've witnessed or been a part of a few of these debates before.

As for the second part of your post, I have not and will not disagree with that. Perhaps it's just a difference in perspective, but I have had numerous occasions where small vessels do what I described a couple of posts ago.



Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Watermann despite what you said VTS does legally control traffic in certain cases it's not just a monitoring service

For example the VTS area at the port of Rotterdam

"
3. Traffic instructions

Traffic instructions, issued in accordance with legal regulations, are binding orders imposed on shipping
traffic by the VTS authority.

"
If that isn't " control" well..

Dave
I've never been into Rotterdam, but that blurb (or one like it) is found in pretty much any VTS Manual anywhere you go. In extreme situations, they can intercede. I have never denied that.

What you will not find - at least to my knowledge, and certainly not in the U.S. - is an ATC-like Vessel Traffic Control where specific speeds and courses are issued to vessels as a matter of routine. It's been proposed before and that is something that I (and most other captains/pilots I know) would never want to see, for the reasons I mentioned above. The closest thing you might see now is mandatory wake reductions during certain tides or special operations or clearances for one-way traffic zones.
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:26   #182
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"Traffic instructions" should not be confused for conning orders. Instructions are more generalized directions, like "you're cleared to depart"; "take the north lane inbound"; "proceed via the south channel"; "hold back until Behemoth Maru clears the bridge outbound"; etc. It's still up to the bridge crew to navigate and manoeuvre for anti-collision situations.
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:36   #183
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Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
I appreciate that Rule 34(d) exists, but does anyone actually carry something on board that can be heard from the bridge of a container ship?
Even large ship whistles are limited in range - beyond 2 or 3 miles they are practically inaudible. I only sounded signals if it would matter to some other vessel within that range. As others have said they don't normally hear large ships sound manoeuvring signals - it may be they were just too far away.

As far as what is practical in a small boat, you can supplement the whistle with a light signal - a nice powerful hand-held spotlight is a good thing to have on a small vessel. And this would also be a good time to use VHF. Obviously AIS would be very helpful to identify the other vessel by name, but with a good pair of binoculars you can just read the name off the bow.
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Old 17-12-2010, 06:47   #184
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Yes, 2 kids under the age of 5.
Good one!
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Old 17-12-2010, 07:12   #185
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Wow! This thread is still going? C'mon guys, debate all you want about rules, the fact is 99.98% of cruisers are in boats so small they are nothing more than a gnat on a horse's patoot! In fact when I was pushing 200' barges around Tampa Bay I WAS SMALL!

Thump your chest and blather on all you want; but it boils down to "Get out of the bludi way!"
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Old 17-12-2010, 07:24   #186
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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
Thump your chest and blather on all you want; but it boils down to "Get out of the bludi way!"
Except most of the large-ship drivers are telling you not to get out of the bludi way, but to follow the rules. Since this thread has become a discussion about how to deal with interactions with large ships, don't you think you should listen to them?
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Old 17-12-2010, 08:23   #187
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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Except most of the large-ship drivers are telling you not to get out of the bludi way, but to follow the rules. Since this thread has become a discussion about how to deal with interactions with large ships, don't you think you should listen to them?
Not really...as the context was relevant to the small vessel being too close to begin with. IMHO, anyone who operates a small vessel anywhere close to a large vessel underway (other than perhaps a pilot or harbor tug) is a fool...... Let me say that again: anyone who operates a small vessel anywhere close to a large vessel underway (other than perhaps a pilot or harbor tug) is a fool.

Were I at sea and found a CPA with a large vessel to be within 1000 yards, I would get out of the bludi way well in advance with a course change that could not be mistaken for anything but giving way... regardless of being privileged or not... ESPECIALLY in a vessel not capable of speed in excess of the large ship!

In an inland situation I would likewise stop, turn or move out of the channel as appropriate to maintain as large a separation as possible given the circumstance.

To argue otherwise (again IMHO) is a position of inexperience, ignorance, and arrogance. I am sure the purists of "The Rules" will disagree, but as I pointed out earlier, a small vessel in a confrontation with a large ship is like a motorcycle in a traffic crash..... right or wrong: YOU LOSE!
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Old 17-12-2010, 10:37   #188
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Not really...as the context was relevant to the small vessel being too close to begin with.
That is not the context at all. Most of the arguments have centred on whether it is right or wrong to alter course as the stand-on vessel early in the anti-collision situation.

Quote:
IMHO, anyone who operates a small vessel anywhere close to a large vessel underway (other than perhaps a pilot or harbor tug) is a fool...... Let me say that again: anyone who operates a small vessel anywhere close to a large vessel underway (other than perhaps a pilot or harbor tug) is a fool.

Were I at sea and found a CPA with a large vessel to be within 1000 yards, I would get out of the bludi way well in advance with a course change that could not be mistaken for anything but giving way... regardless of being privileged or not... ESPECIALLY in a vessel not capable of speed in excess of the large ship!

In an inland situation I would likewise stop, turn or move out of the channel as appropriate to maintain as large a separation as possible given the circumstance.
So I take it you wouldn't use a channel that is a half-mile wide, if there is the possibility that a large vessel would be in it?
And in open ocean, passing at a half-mile is too close for you?
Quote:
To argue otherwise (again IMHO) is a position of inexperience, ignorance, and arrogance. I am sure the purists of "The Rules" will disagree, but as I pointed out earlier, a small vessel in a confrontation with a large ship is like a motorcycle in a traffic crash..... right or wrong: YOU LOSE!
So if someone disagrees with you, they're inexperienced, ignorant and arrogant? The rules don't tell you to crash into big ships - in a close quarters situation, you are to continue checking to ensure the other ship passes safely. As long as the bearing of the other vessel is drawing in the appropriate direction, there is no possibility of collision.
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Old 17-12-2010, 10:39   #189
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Agree to disagree Sir! My opinion will keep me, my boat, and my crew alive.

No 1/2 mile is just right... as the 10' bow wave has subsided to 2' by then!
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Old 17-12-2010, 11:05   #190
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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
In an inland situation I would likewise stop, turn or move out of the channel as appropriate to maintain as large a separation as possible given the circumstance.
A few years ago I had the opportunity to transit the fiords around Bergen, Norway on the bridge of a large ship. I was impressed at how little tension there was between the ship, which maintained cruising speed, and recreational traffic. No one seemed especially concerned when vessels came within close proximity--it was all very routine. A totally different scene than my home waters on San Francisco Bay, where it would be unusual to go through a weekend without hearing several ships give recreational boaters the five-blast treatment.

On the other hand, there are numerous channels here where it's not uncommon to encounter a ship at close quarters: the Richmond channel, Redwood Creek Channel, the Oakland Estuary, the Sacramento Deepwater Channel. It's not at all uncommon to pass a ship port-to-port going the opposite direction in these channels. No big deal.

There's no reason for small craft to clear the water when a ship is around. Once we figure out that ships go much faster than recreational sailboats, and that they are more constrained by draft, and that they tend not to have good brakes, everyone can get along just fine.
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Old 17-12-2010, 11:34   #191
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There's no reason for small craft to clear the water when a ship is around.
Agreed! Hence my caveat "given the circumstance" I've done many a 1 whistle pass in tight channels way under 1000 yards (been under 100 FEET in the C&D canal) BUT the ship wasn't at best economical, and there is no place to get out of the bludi way!

IF the ship was making 20kts and we were in open water, it would be 1K yards!
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Old 17-12-2010, 14:52   #192
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If you want to know who might be wrong then I highly recommend a formal study of the COLREGS. If you get a good book on it then its quite interesting especially with all the case histories.
Dave (or anyone else),

Could you please provide the titles of books you would recommend?

Thanks!
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Old 17-12-2010, 15:25   #193
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Sorry Kevin I am aware of those various interpretations in the seaman rules. The whole book is written from the big ship perspective.

I will repeat for a small slow boat encountering a large ship , do not stand on into danger. Danger is your understanding of it not any rule. Take early avoiding action as is provided for in rule 17(ii) that way you get to stay alive. That is the summation of 34 years sailing small boats in relation to this.

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Old 17-12-2010, 19:21   #194
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Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
IMHO, anyone who operates a small vessel anywhere close to a large vessel underway (other than perhaps a pilot or harbor tug) is a fool...... Let me say that again: anyone who operates a small vessel anywhere close to a large vessel underway (other than perhaps a pilot or harbor tug) is a fool.
And 1000 yards is close ?

Wow.



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Old 17-12-2010, 19:42   #195
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Sorry I'd agree with capngeo. On the open sea a CPA of 1/2 mile is close too close ( and most ships would think the same ) obviously in denser traffic you are forced closer.

Dave
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