Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14-12-2017, 01:43   #31
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 19,844
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by daletournier View Post
I think small case alternators not being able to produce consistently their marketed output is discussed reasonably regularly. My 100amp alternator should be rebadged 70amps sometimes!!


A little drift, but Iím beginning to get the opinion that due to the mass being the same, cooling fans and the same cooling fins on all small frame alternators, itís possible that they all limit power output about the same on a continuous duty cycle, assuming 100 amp or larger.
I donít see how a 200 amp alternator could make more power, yet less heat than say a 100 amp alternator. It would have to be much more efficient to do so, and I donít see how you could get a large increase in efficiency?
__________________

a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 04:49   #32
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,444
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Two ideas:

1) if Balmar believes in the accuracy of smart gauge then integrate it into the VR with a pair of terminals. A customer that has the SG could connect a couple wires from it to the VR and then the VR would know the SOC. Might take a respin of SG.

2) I second the idea of having a Blue Tooth enabled micro inside the VR. Then a smart phone can program it in whatever language. The hardware cost of BT is <$1 these days. Software development will be significant but if you start with some of the DIY micro controllers then a lot of software is already free.

Bad ideas: don't add a SOC coulomb counter into the VR. Adds cost and most people already have one. If they don't have one they will need a lot of features 90% of other buyers won't need. Best idea is to find a way for the VR to talk to a good lead acid battery monitor. Balmar already markets SG so why not use it?
__________________

transmitterdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 04:52   #33
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,444
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
A little drift, but Iím beginning to get the opinion that due to the mass being the same, cooling fans and the same cooling fins on all small frame alternators, itís possible that they all limit power output about the same on a continuous duty cycle, assuming 100 amp or larger.
I donít see how a 200 amp alternator could make more power, yet less heat than say a 100 amp alternator. It would have to be much more efficient to do so, and I donít see how you could get a large increase in efficiency?
Large case alternators have room for larger wires. The reason small case alternators get hot is the wire is too small but there isn't room for larger gauge wire. Larger wires improve efficiency dramatically.
transmitterdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 07:58   #34
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 19,844
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Two ideas:

1) if Balmar believes in the accuracy of smart gauge then integrate it into the VR with a pair of terminals. A customer that has the SG could connect a couple wires from it to the VR and then the VR would know the SOC. Might take a respin of SG.

2) I second the idea of having a Blue Tooth enabled micro inside the VR. Then a smart phone can program it in whatever language. The hardware cost of BT is <$1 these days. Software development will be significant but if you start with some of the DIY micro controllers then a lot of software is already free.

Bad ideas: don't add a SOC coulomb counter into the VR. Adds cost and most people already have one. If they don't have one they will need a lot of features 90% of other buyers won't need. Best idea is to find a way for the VR to talk to a good lead acid battery monitor. Balmar already markets SG so why not use it?


Unless they can make the Smart Gauge accurate during the charge phase it wonít work.
Plus I donít think Balmar owns it, just sells it under their label and therefore likely canít change anything?
a64pilot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 08:26   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,023
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
You should look at the ProMariner ProIsoCharge products. They replace the battery combiner or diode isolators with a smart switch. IIRC they first start charging the starting battery, then as that voltage comes up (if discharged) it will switch the house battery bank in. Once any bank is fully charged (usually the start battery first) they are disconnected from charging. There is an output for battery voltage sense for the alternator regulator; it is always connected to the currently charging battery or batteries. It also solves the problem of voltage drop across diodes. Pretty cool. I bought one but haven't installed it yet. The best explanation is in their online catalog: ProMariner Catalog .

Greg
Many authoritative posters have stated these are a complete waste of money.

The designer is famous for inventing problems that do not exist and scaremongering people into spending money on his "solutions".

Not saying doesn't do the job, yes great build quality, but no real advantage over any other much simpler ACR.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 08:29   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,023
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Balmar already markets SG so why not use it?
No SoC meter is trustworthy for controlling a charge source.

All you need is trailing Amps anyway (for lead)
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 12:06   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Lelystad Holland
Boat: Feeling 446 44ft
Posts: 0
Images: 5
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

I agree with most of the proposed suggestions mentioned before.

But I suggest to make a more fundamental change in the alternator.
1 separate the alternator and the electronics including the rectifier bridge.
2 run the alternator on the highest sensibel voltage (ig 60V or 100V) to work with the lowest possible current.
3 place the electronics part in a cool(er) place or use watercooling.
4 the electronics part shoud rectify the 3F AC current, convert it via DC-DC-conversion to the desired voltage, optimised for te maximum battery loading current,etc.
Integrate all possible and/or wanted options in this part( current measurement, temperature measurements,communications etc..
Develop this part together in conjuction with Victron and/or Mastervolt, use open communication protocols (NMEA 2000)
4
bolbliksem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 13:33   #38
Marine Service Provider
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,804
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Thanks all for the great feedback and input, this is exactly what I am looking for. Many of the suggestions mentioned are already on our list. Good product design does not happen in a vacuum. Keep it coming!

Chris
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 18:09   #39
Registered User
 
Jon Hacking's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Currently cruising Southern Indonesia, heading for peninsular Malaysia
Boat: Wauquiez 45' (now 48') catamaran
Posts: 565
Send a message via Skype™ to Jon Hacking
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Having fried $3000 of Sonnenschein Gels by overcharging, I'm convinced that measuring the current into the battery is essential if you want to:
  • Charge the batteries as quickly as possible
  • Preserve our expensive batteries so they last as long as possible
Luckily, there's now a regulator that does this. It's designed by a cruiser, for cruising boats. Microprocessor based and including many of the features discussed so far, like multiple temperature sensors, communications abilities, P or N type alternators. Handles all battery types. It even uses the newer, longer lasting, boat algorithms for LiFePO4s instead of the car algorithms.

The really good news is that they're only $80, as he's selling them pretty much at cost. And no, I have no financial interest here.
__________________
-- Jon Hacking s/v Ocelot
Jon Hacking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 18:16   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 5,023
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Yes already plugged in post #4
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 18:27   #41
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 12,462
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Another thought: having personally had two Balmar regs die, and knowing of a few more amongst the cruisers that I've sailed with, how about improving longevity before further complicating the equipment?

I suppose the bottom line figures for such improvements don't appeal to the bean counters, but users would applaud the change.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying on the Clarence river in the vicinity of Ashby, doing boat chores.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 18:47   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Marina del Rey
Boat: Hunter 31
Posts: 582
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

I would start with defining your potential customer first, then make the simplest and easiest solution for them. Some examples:

Ideally, I would like to have a VR standard on a new boat. So, market to the boat builders, get their requirements.

Another set of users are boaters who are fed up with their charging solutions, especially the settings. For those, I would have a simple VR, that is Bluetooth controlled, and it can automatically download charging profiles for most battery types (or allow manual override). All the firmware updates, features, etc. should happen seamlessly through the smartphone. I should be able to install the VR, select the battery type from a pull down menu and be done with it. It may be helpful to get charge info on my phone but not essential.

Make it easy to use but low price. I firmly believe that the benefits of an external VR are minimal in most cases. What you want is a moderately priced VR that is easy to use so that you can convert marginal users.

If you price your nexgen thingy at $500 and most benefits would need a new alternator at $500 then you will be looking at a market size of 500 users (max). Even if you make a gross profit of $200, I would not bother. If you can get the device above for $199, you can get 50,000 users with some creative marketing.
Pizzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 20:06   #43
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,144
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Yes already plugged in post #4
While already plugged before, I would also like to point out that this regulator is awesome. It is however not a 'consumer friendly' product. It isn't really a product as such but rather something awesome in the making. You need considerable know-how (or persistence) to get the most of of that regulator. It also has no packaging but is just a circuit board left for the end user to integrate.
If and when it ever reaches the market as a consumer product, it will kill the MC-614 there is just no comparison between the two. I have no idea at what price point it would come to market as a consumer product but nowhere near the current price for obvious reasons (as it is currently sold at cost since it is a project and not a product).

I now use the MC 614 as a backup unit because it a) was extremely frustrating to adjust parameters (pathetic user interface) and b) was unable to intelligently report to an electronically enabled boat system.
Jd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 22:21   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Victoria BC
Boat: 1980 Hunter 36
Posts: 751
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Already said but the ability to COMPLETELY DISABLE float
__________________
S/V Gudgeon
www.gudgeonblog.ca
alctel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2017, 22:32   #45
Ancient Mariner
 
spiv's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Circumnavigating, currently in AU
Boat: FP, Salina 14.3m
Posts: 265
Send a message via Skype™ to spiv
Re: Next Gen Alternator Regulator

Hi all, great thread!!

I understand only 50~75% of what's been said so far, but I do understand our needs.

I'd love to see an alternator that gives me its Max output with the engine idling (ie: when at anchor) and then not fry itself when using the motors underway.

Ability to charge reliabily and safely LiFePO4s is a must as well.
__________________

__________________
Keep smiling
Stefano
spiv is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alternator, regulator

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Case Study:Diesel AC Gen to DC Gen- Larger boat Pelagic Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 34 23-11-2017 21:07
For Sale: Ample Power NEXT Alternator Regulator P-Type 12V petedd Classifieds Archive 3 11-10-2015 07:35
Wind Gen + Solar + what regulator or controller ? ribbony Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 9 05-12-2012 13:27
Why Are Next-Gen Anchors Considered 'Better' ? sailingharry Anchoring & Mooring 420 05-04-2012 05:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.