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Old 05-03-2018, 11:21   #16
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

The specs state 5.2 litres per minute consumption @ 400 watts. That's a lot of hydrogen to carry around.
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Old 05-03-2018, 19:41   #17
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

For the price and the environment, I think the US military is a better target. Especially the last administration. As an emergency starting system, for $99, I can start my Detroit mains with my Line-x jump starter. A spare 8d battery and cables is less than $350.
I already have diesel on board. To run your fuel cell, I'd need a tank farm. There are no hydrogen fill stations at sea.
Great product, but expensive as all new tech is.
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Old 05-03-2018, 23:45   #18
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

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Originally Posted by Wood View Post
The specs state 5.2 litres per minute consumption @ 400 watts. That's a lot of hydrogen to carry around.
The system uses compressed hydrogen gas, not liquid.
1kg H2 = 1400 L = 11.988 m3, therefore at consumption rate 5.2 litres per minute (or ~0.22kg/h) 1kg of gas lasts for approx. 4.5 hours.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:03   #19
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

Not quiet ready for prime time but I believe this will come to be.Exciting
the stuff dreams are made from...keep on thinking freely .
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:20   #20
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

Not that I'm buying one...
Has this been tested in a marine environment? I believe the unit will have a PEM (proton exchange membrane) where H2 and air (the O2 part of it that is) combine to put out electricity. Does it tolerate saltwater contamination? What lifespan is expected? Will power output stay constant throughout lifetime?
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:07   #21
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

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Originally Posted by Maiko View Post
So far, this is the only one working on hydrogen. There are 2-3 competitors, but they use methanol and propane for instance, plus their max power output is >35x times lower.

Definitely hydrogen infrastructure is a problem currently for many places, but it is developing so rapidly and even now in some countries it won't be much of a problem to buy hydrogen (e.g Japan). South-Korea has plans for 310 H2 stations by 2022. Also, separating H2 from water (by electrolysis) is getting cheaper and more efficient.

The cost today is 12,500€ (pre-order is 8,500€), but that's solely because the scale of manufacturing is so low. We've only just launched the product for pre-sale and will cut the costs as soon as we can manufacture in greater quantities.
Do I understand that you are claiming as a USP, like in the first paragraph of your pitch, 35x greater max power than competitors?

But this is not part of your new technology, just a rather trivial feature provided by some capacitors?

Hmmm. I might suggest, as a tip on marketing, that this does not make a good impression at all on a technologically literate audience, and you will have to crack the nerds and early adopters first, if you want to get that off the ground.

Also -- hydrogen infrastructure is "rapidly expanding"? Is that true? Could we see some numbers?


A device which could produce 400 watts of continuous output in a 10kg package and with no moving parts could actually be tremendously useful, and might potentially be worth $15k, which is no more than a heavy duty generator like mine costs to install. That amount of power will cover the electrical power needs of most cruising boats which are not running A/C. Does it produce waste heat? Boats without A/C often are running heating most of the year, and can use the waste heat.

But how to supply it with fuel? Your big bottle will run the device for about one day by my calculation. Let's say I'm going to sign up to buy this thing for my boat on the South Coast of England. Where am I going to get the fuel? How much does it cost?

In my opinion, you need to lay off the hype and be prepared to answer the real practical questions, if you want to sell any of these. You need to speak to the technically savvy people who are your potential early adopters, in their own language, without bull and without avoiding discussion of any challenges like sourcing fuel. Good luck.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:33   #22
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

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Originally Posted by Dymaxion View Post
Not that I'm buying one...
Has this been tested in a marine environment? I believe the unit will have a PEM (proton exchange membrane) where H2 and air (the O2 part of it that is) combine to put out electricity. Does it tolerate saltwater contamination? What lifespan is expected? Will power output stay constant throughout lifetime?
It hasn't been tested in the marine environment yet, we've only just launched our MVP (minimum viable product). The testing will be done shortly. So far it has been tested in lab conditions only. Nevertheless, it is designed to be water and corrosion resistant. The minimum lifespan is expected to be 5000 hours, which is the lifespan of fuel cells. And yes, unlike batteries, power output will stay constant.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:55   #23
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

@CShawn

You nailed it :-)

Would it not be nice if it could produce Hydrogen to be used in suitable appliances/engines on board.
:-)
I know that won't happen anytime soon, as it needs to much wind and sun capacity.

Regarding the fuel cell promoted here. Probably interesting fir people sailing and staying in the "First" World.
I cannot see this as an option on a long distance boat, as the availability of Hydrogen in other parts of the world will be close to zero for many years.

Might be interesting for raceboats or superyachts though.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:18   #24
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Do I understand that you are claiming as a USP, like in the first paragraph of your pitch, 35x greater max power than competitors?

But this is not part of your new technology, just a rather trivial feature provided by some capacitors?

Hmmm. I might suggest, as a tip on marketing, that this does not make a good impression at all on a technologically literate audience, and you will have to crack the nerds and early adopters first, if you want to get that off the ground.

Also -- hydrogen infrastructure is "rapidly expanding"? Is that true? Could we see some numbers?


A device which could produce 400 watts of continuous output in a 10kg package and with no moving parts could actually be tremendously useful, and might potentially be worth $15k, which is no more than a heavy duty generator like mine costs to install. That amount of power will cover the electrical power needs of most cruising boats which are not running A/C. Does it produce waste heat? Boats without A/C often are running heating most of the year, and can use the waste heat.

But how to supply it with fuel? Your big bottle will run the device for about one day by my calculation. Let's say I'm going to sign up to buy this thing for my boat on the South Coast of England. Where am I going to get the fuel? How much does it cost?

In my opinion, you need to lay off the hype and be prepared to answer the real practical questions, if you want to sell any of these. You need to speak to the technically savvy people who are your potential early adopters, in their own language, without bull and without avoiding discussion of any challenges like sourcing fuel. Good luck.
I appreciate your interest and thoughts on the topic!

Our USP is that it's specifically designed for marine environment, hence it's water and corrosion resistant. Not a feature that (most) diesel generators and our competitors - Efoy and Hydromax can claim. Also, 7000W peak is important for quick start operation.

As I have been in this sector for quite some time and been reading hydrogen news every day, I can really say that it is expanding very fast. It's much like electric cars were at first - no one wanted to buy these, for they were expensive and inefficient and had a low driving range, they lacked the infrastructure etc. Hydrogen is also facing these problems, but it is becoming more and more efficient as a fuel. Some articles:

1. China is building a hydrogen city - https://t.co/57VPP6zjWD
2. A leading Swedish steel plan will operate entirely on hydrogen - https://interestingengineering.com/s...-hydrogen-fuel
3. Germany has 45 public H2 stations, and 24 of them were opened last year - https://t.co/b44CQzPDb2
4. China has plans for 1000 H2 stations by 2030 - https://twitter.com/H2FCEV/status/962448143257358336
5. South Korea plans 300 H2 stations in 5 years time - Press Release: International Hydrogen Energy Forum, Seoul, Korea – Hydrogen Council
6. Buses, trains and semi-trucks are starting to operate on hydrogen, because it's quiet, convenient and becoming very efficient - https://www.gasworld.com/commerciali...014105.article
7. Shell and ITM Power will build the world's largest H2 electrolysis plant - https://www.gasworld.com/worlds-larg...014068.article

And so on. Fuel cell electric vehicles don't have a long recharging time like electric cars do, filling up takes just a few minutes. And the range is also good - Hyundai Nexo will have a range of 370 miles (609 kilometres).

When using hydrogen as fuel, it emits water and heat, so yes, this heat could potentially be used.

This website has provided most of the H2 stations (not perfectly up-to-date): link. So just pick the most suitable for you and you can recharge there. Would you be willing to share your calculations?

Hope that answers your questions
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:27   #25
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
@CShawn

You nailed it :-)

Would it not be nice if it could produce Hydrogen to be used in suitable appliances/engines on board.
:-)
I know that won't happen anytime soon, as it needs to much wind and sun capacity.

Regarding the fuel cell promoted here. Probably interesting fir people sailing and staying in the "First" World.
I cannot see this as an option on a long distance boat, as the availability of Hydrogen in other parts of the world will be close to zero for many years.

Might be interesting for raceboats or superyachts though.
It is actually possible to produce hydrogen on board. All you need is solar panels (not a secret that hydrogen needs energy to be produced) and an electrolyzer. The upside is that once you have the system set up you can create your own hydrogen with no cost whatsoever. Electrolysis is the process where hydrogen is separated from water. This way the process creates no emissions, too.
The downside is that you need solar panels and an electrolyzer, which have a relatively high upfront cost. Small-scale electrolyzer is about $5000.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:49   #26
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

@Maiko

And you need huge panels to generate any useful amount....

Simply a question of energy in (=Panelarea) vs energy out (=Hydrogen).

So not a really viable option.

Regarding Hydrogen availability, In remote areas, where many if us venture you will nit get it a low prices for a low time.
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Old 08-03-2018, 17:25   #27
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

I mentioned this in a PM but thought I would toss it out to the board as well. The real market for now I doubt will be cruisers, but race boats (isn't it always). Being able to replace the weight of diesel, PV panels, a small generator, and some batteries or some mix of all of those would be worth the cost no matter what that cost is. A boat like Comanche, or the Pac-52 fleet doing the Trans-Pac would be easy sells so long as the amount of power output is enough to meet their demands and the weight is less than what it takes off. For this market cost and fuel availability really aren't all that important. When boats are willing to spend $1,000/lb to save weight, anything that shaves a couple of pounds is worth it.

Better yet these boats are all highly engineered so the power draw per hour is very well known. Which makes determining if the system will work ahead of time pretty easy.

A smaller version would be a natural for the Mini 650 class since they are even more weight limited and other options for power generation are limited. A small lightweight fuel cell with enough power generation to keep the systems running would be worth a lot. Again these are very highly engineered boats so it would be pretty easy to figure out the amount of power they need per hour over the course of a race.

In either case these boats just don't care about fuel availability since they only need to carry enough to get to the finish line.
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Old 09-03-2018, 03:28   #28
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
@Maiko

And you need huge panels to generate any useful amount....

Simply a question of energy in (=Panelarea) vs energy out (=Hydrogen).

So not a really viable option.

Regarding Hydrogen availability, In remote areas, where many if us venture you will nit get it a low prices for a low time.


Isn't it an amazing time we are in. Major breakthroughs in batteries and charging devices.

Embrace technology experiment a bit. A lot of us can afford it.

By using technology we make it cheeper.

Some feel cheated when the latest technology is superseded - others cheer.
It's all perspective.
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Old 09-03-2018, 04:21   #29
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

Im not saying that its not interesting technology and that in 15 years we may even see it appearing in remote areas.

BUT for now I do not see it being used on the average long distance Cruising Boat.
On cruising boats its best to have the simple reliable stuff local fisherman in remote areas use.
I even have sometimes issues getting petrol for the outboard.
Diesel you get everywhere.
Hydrogen? Maybe maybe in big cities...

Raceboats will if course use it
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Old 09-03-2018, 04:44   #30
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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell generator

The fuel availability is a bit of challenge.

But it sounds like you also share the major drawback which has economically constrained the Efoy from being a major success (which btw have been used in mini's and a several rtw race boats).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maiko View Post
400 watts continuous output; lifespan ...... 5000 hours
The 400 watt output is pretty small (compared to daily loads and to diesel gensets). It means the unit has to run pretty much continuously. However when run continuously that means that 5000 hours is only a 210 day life span for the unit. At which point (if you are like the efoy's) the unit is pretty much disposable because it would have to be shipped back to the factory with the membrane replaced at cost a decent percentage of original unit.

There are not all that many applications where a 210 day lifespan is really acceptable.
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