RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Charter companies in the med will accept a wide range of certificates. The ICC is only one of them

I believe this to be true.

[Sailing Cowboy]

[QUOTE "Now it´s me I am afraid".

I am simply answering the question you asked of me.



[QUOTE "Reading Comprehension 101. I did not say that the EBA document is "completely false". I just said (typo corrected) that the EBA document that you cited has an "unfounded claim that you quoted". The claim that is unfounded is that there are countries that "demand" an ICC (where they should say that there are countries that "accept" an ICC as one more of a list of things they accept). "

Geesh Charlie. Those are the EBA's words. Not mine and I thought it would be helpful to present something official and use the EBA's words rather than spewing non sense as often happens here. Don't shoot the messenger.


"I have seen IYT peddle their ICC as "required" for US bareboaters going to Croatia who already have ASA certifications, when in fact Croatia will take any or almost any ASA certification. "

Yes IYT, RYA, ASA and a host of other certifying bodies preach the same dam thing. Wonder what the reason could be? Could it be for the whopping $78.00 CDN in revenue as you claim. I doubt it.

[admiralslater]

I used Navathome online for my day skipper therory it was about 60 hours and then did 5 Days on board in Grenada whith water sailing">blue water sailing for the practical . it was great
David

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailing Cowboy

Sorry Dave I didn't apply to be your personal legal assistant. You have to do your own homework. I have included a link for you directly to the European Boating Association and there comments on the subject.

http://www.eba.eu.com/site-documents...sition-icc.pdf

I want you to pay particular attention to Page 2 " Application of the ICC" and in particular and I quote:

"Notwithstanding this there are some countries that have not yet adopted Resolution 40 that will readily accept or even demand an ICC from visiting foreign yachtsmen as evidence of competence. "

There. I provided that to you "no charge". Your freebie for the day. Now I think you will agree the EBA is a little more in the know than "Dave from Cruisers forum" wouldn't you agree?

Quote:"I am involved at a European level in leisure boating policy"

That's a fairly tall claim Dave.
Can you provide us with the name of the Board, Committee or Commission that you currently sit on that determines leisure boating policy?

The bad in all of this is some cruiser is going to pull into a port and be asked for an ICC. They will reply with "Dave from Cruisers forum said I didn't need it and my wet paper bag ASA certificate would work".

What do you think they will think of you when they're turned around and sent packing?

Quote: "Your constant ramblings about resolution 40 show your lack of understanding of the whole ICC process."

I don't think it is I sir who has the lack of understanding, it is you.

While this rant against my view is misguided and I certainly don't intend to discuss my involvement in boating policy formation here etc.

Firstly countries " can readily accept " anything , that provides no onus to actually produce a particular certification

The only place ( and the eba is technically correct ) where the ICC is " demanded " is for certain inland Waterways in Europe. I have yet to see ANY legislation in any European country demanding an ICC and only and ICC.

I am afraid it is you sir , that has mis interpreted both the law and on the ground practice.

Furthermore the ASA 101-104 certificates would on any comparison be superior to the ICC. The ICC is about boat handling , it has little to do with navigation for example

I contend what I have said is 100 % correct and nothing you say to date disproves it

DVd

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

Their claim that there is a country or countries that will "demand an ICC from visiting foreign yachtsmen as evidence of competence". I take that as an innocent writing error, but you make it important in rejecting Dave´s reasoning an facts.



You have already shot Dave instead of addressing what he said.



Now it´s me I am afraid.









Reading Comprehension 101. I did not say that the EBA document is "completely false". I just said (typo corrected) that the EBA document that you cited has an "unfounded claim that you quoted". The claim that is unfounded is that there are countries that "demand" an ICC (where they should say that there are countries that "accept" an ICC as one more of a list of things they accept).







Now I am in my PC and see your signature that mentions your affiliation with IYT; which was not visible in the smartphone client. I am sorry about the facts but they are what they are.



I have seen IYT peddle their ICC as "required" for US bareboaters going to Croatia who already have ASA certifications, when in fact Croatia will take any or almost any ASA certification. Read the following official document from the Croatian authority if this not clear to you.



http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...(2)%203_11.pdf



Have a good day



Charlie

It's an unfortunate side effect of commercial sailing schools, that its in their interest to obfuscate the purpose of the ICC and other certification. Various web sites over the years have contained deliberately confusing and misguided phrases to seek to misguide the unwary that certificate X or Y is needed

This is true of all schools

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailing Cowboy

As a further note I should point out that RYA offers ICC for free as along as you pay their yearly membership fee of @$80 I believe.
IYT charges $78.00 CDN and its good for 5 years, so its cheaper than RYA. In Australia they offer RYA ICC through Yachting Australia but its more than double the cost of IYT's ICC. So those are some facts when it comes to cost on IYT. Doesn't sound like the organization you make it out to be?

You only need to be a member for the year of issue by the way.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

I was referring toyour earlier post that says "do not go to Europe without an ICC" and that EBA document with the unfounded claim yhat you quoted.
I have no "beef" with IYT. I know them well (have their MoY ticket from their Ft L school, as well as a traditional RYA YM) and know that they can be a bit pushy when selling their tickets.

The RYA markets the ICC as a free add-on for their qualified members (Day Skipper and above) that want something to show in Croatia, Montenegro or the inland waterways of continental Europe. This is quite different from the ICC approach of selling it as a standalone course (which is not cheap) saying they cannot go to Europe without it.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Just a note that ICC with inland qualifications requires a seperate CEVNI. Written exam.

[boatman61]

A bit of clearing up based on 'Personal' experience...
The ICC/Coastal Skipper certificate (its NOT a frickin licence) is valid for 5yrs and the cost of the initial certificate was included in the cost of the Theory and Practical test I took in the late 80's..
Membership of the RYA not required/optional..
After 5 years when time to renew one has the option off..
A/ Become an RYA Member and get the new Certificate for free.. or
B/ Pay the same money for the Certificate and not become an RYA member...
cheaper as its an annual membership fee.. but give the 'Membership' a brief shot in the arm.

Regarding being asked for proof of competence it happens.. its the discrettion of the local Harbour Master/ Port Captain... and another thing you should be aware of.. they don't turn you away if you have no qualifications acceptable.. they prevent you from sailing until you either come up with the required quals.. or can present a crew member joining your vessel who HAS the required/acceptable quals...
Your in their waters and they don't want un-skilled (officially) crew piloting leisure vessels in their waters causing potential problems.. seen this once in Portimao, Portugal.. this was an Irish cat that we assisted by suppling a crew member of ours to get the boat out of port then we did a transfer at sea once 12 miles from Portimao... and once at the E end of the Corinth Canal, Greece where you pay for Transit..
But... if you know better..
Happy Sailing...

[goboatingnow]

Id like to try in one post to address all the issues concerning the ICC and certification of competence in Europe. Id like to challenge those here that persistently mis quote pseudo official websites and documents as well

I am quite happy to debate these points without descending into personal attacks about " dave from CF etc"

I should say that I have recently resigned from my involvement in policy making in this area ( not directly referring to ICC) but since such discussion are private to the organisation , in would not be appropriate for me to comment about the internal workings etc.

So from that respect I am just Dave from CF !.


The ICC was actually formatted to address the issue of INLAND certificate of competency on Europes extensive commercial canal and river infrastructure, it was not initially intended to have any basis for charter or costal sailing.

the committee called
ECONOMIC COMMISSION FOR EUROPE
INLAND TRANSPORT COMMITTEE Working Party on Inland Water Transport ( note Inland)

was set up to address a standardised competency cert for places like the rhine and Danube.

It that regard , most countries that require competency on Inland waters DEMAND an ICC , or will recognise specific national INLAND competency certs.

The UNECE ( a post WW2 UN body) of which by the way the US is a member, produced first Resolution 14 and then resolution 40. Without plouging through this is detail , som ekey points are salient

(1) A signatory to the Res 40, merely obliges ( as a recommendation) that that the signatory nation accepts an ICC as "A" form of competency certification. It does not mandate recognition nor force a signatory country to introduce any competency certification at all.

(2) A signatory country " can" mandate an agency to test and issue ICCs , it doesn't actually have to

(3) A ICC is a competency cert that merely says that the holder is " regarded " as competent on his " own" boat. ( i.e. national flag) It is NOT a competency cert for charter or third party boat use ( my italics and quotes). It use in charter competency is outside the scope of Res 40 and hence why there is so much obfuscation and confusion.


(4) Countries can only issue ICCs to their own nationals, the EXCEPTION is that both the ISA ( Irish sailing association) and the RYA ( Royal Yachting Association) were recently granted approvals to issue ICCs to other nationals of countries that did not officially issue ICCs,

This is the basis upon which IYT issue ICCS to USA and Canadian yachtmens. Why the ASA then went on to develop their own, when the US could have easily signed Res 40, which is more a problem of the US and its relationship with the UN then anything nautical.

IYT which initially derived a lot of its legimacy from the ISA , and later the RYA/MCA hence have used that derogation to so issue ICCs


Note , there isn't ONE ICC. There are several variants for power and sail. For Inland use the CEVNI rules exam must be sat and the extension so applied to the ticket.

(5) Resolution 40 also allows signatory countries to use equivalent national certs as the basis for awarding the ICC, as long as the national cert meets the basic conditions as laid out in Res 40. This is the basis for the RYA / ISA and others issuing the cert in the back of Day Skipper,powerboat and advanced power tickets etc .

(6) Now the obfuscation

To my knowledge ( and yes thats it) Only two counties in Europe, DEMAND specific NAMED qualifications in order to charter or sail certain pleasure craft in their territorial waters . That is Croatia and Montenegro. They accept a wide variety of such certifications as has been detailed elsewhere on CF. This includes ASA certs etc. It worth pointing out that these countries do not accept commercial tickets for such purposes , but anecdotally I have heard they are accepted.

Enforcement of these rules can be haphazard and subject to local confusion too.

( I am unclear in respect of Albania)

Several other countries , most notably Portugal have a requirement that a " license " is required to operate a leisure boat, often depending on sea area operation, engine power etc. Countries like Portugal also operate under the basis of comity, in that they will not render illegal , things that are legal in friendly countries. ( these rules have limits of course)

Hence countries like Portugal and Greece will recognise other countries official national " licenses " , the problem of course comes from those pesky nautical countries that have no such " official license ". This is a grey area, on the basis of comity, such countries DO not and HAVE not made an issue for yachts from such flag countries , even if from time to time certain port officials have adopted a " officious " approach. Noone to my knowledge has been prosecuted on that basis.

Again I will re-state, to my detailed knowledge , the in regards the ICC, no country specifically requires it to charter or operate in it s waters in exclusion to any other competency cert. This is an area that sailing schools and the IYT for example have caused great confusion and obfuscation.

to summarise

The ICC is a useful addition for sailors in the Med and Europe ( and South Africa/ Australia) to demonstrate that they have achieved "some" level of competence. It is not an EXCLUSIVE requirement. Any competence certificate is better then none.

Certain countries have specific rules regarding charter , especially domestic charter , Greece , for example requires competency certification, but accepts a wide variety and the charter company can actually self certify in conjunction with the local police etc. Rules vary but again in no case is the ICC a unique requirement.


By and large the Med has a very relaxed approach to boating , entry and exit formalities and often rules are not applied even when they have the force of law and local officials have significant lee-way ( official or not ) in what happens. Long may it remain.

PS In that regard the EBA document is quite correct , but entirely taken out of context in the post that referenced it. ( it is demanded for inland only )

The ICC would have made a very useful standardised document, but unfortunately , in its implementation , countries have screwed with the whole concept , now leaving the cert in a kind of no-mans land
Dave

[Ex-Calif]

A few things are not clear to me.

- Did MarloJill ever get her RYA Daycert online theory done?
- Did MarloJill recover from her Othopedic injury?
- Why after 5 posts in September 2 years ago and one visit in December of that year did MarloJill stop coming to CF?

Oh, wait. I know the answer to the 3rd one. Because, pretty typically, knowledgeable CF members decided to answer the question they wanted to answer and not the question the OP asked.

Carry on men. You are doing a great job.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Regarding being asked for proof of competence it happens.. its the discrettion of the local Harbour Master/ Port Captain... and another thing you should be aware of.. they don't turn you away if you have no qualifications acceptable.. they prevent you from sailing until you either come up with the required quals.. or can present a crew member joining your vessel who HAS the required/acceptable quals...
Your in their waters and they don't want un-skilled (officially) crew piloting leisure vessels in their waters causing potential problems.. seen this once in Portimao, Portugal.. this was an Irish cat that we assisted by suppling a crew member of ours to get the boat out of port then we did a transfer at sea once 12 miles from Portimao... and once at the E end of the Corinth Canal, Greece where you pay for Transit..
But... if you know better..
Happy Sailing...
[/FONT]

Indeed I am aware of that incident. In my view and the view of many people, ( and I actually spoke to the HM in Portimao about this and there are a few unspoken issues around this) The harbour master acted beyond his authority in that regard. Of course thats not much use , when you are stuck in port. Portugal is a notoriously officious country and one where local "authorised" officers often have a poor understanding of the actual law or other countries interpretation of it. ( as it pertains to pleasure craft) It suffers from over employment of such officials , who in this current downturn are frantically trying to justify themselves.

As I said it would be wrong to take that incident ( and there have been one or two others , i.e. Ibiza ) as a general rule. for me sailing into Portuguese harbours over the years and most recently into Lagos, I personally have never been asked for any sort of cert.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Id like to try in one post to address all the issues concerning the ICC and certification of competence in Europe. Id like to challenge those here that persistently mis quote pseudo official websites and documents as well

I am quite happy to debate these points without descending into personal attacks about " dave from CF etc"

I should say that I have recently resigned from my involvement in policy making in this area ( not directly referring to ICC) but since such discussion are private to the organisation , in would not be appropriate for me to comment about the internal workings etc.

So from that respect I am just Dave from CF !.


The ICC was actually formatted to address the issue of INLAND certificate of competency on Europes extensive commercial canal and river infrastructure, it was not initially intended to have any basis for charter or costal sailing.

the committee called
ECONOMIC COMMISSION FOR EUROPE
INLAND TRANSPORT COMMITTEE Working Party on Inland Water Transport ( note Inland)

was set up to address a standardised competency cert for places like the rhine and Danube.

It that regard , most countries that require competency on Inland waters DEMAND an ICC , or will recognise specific national INLAND competency certs.

The UNECE ( a post WW2 UN body) of which by the way the US is a member, produced first Resolution 14 and then resolution 40. Without plouging through this is detail , som ekey points are salient

(1) A signatory to the Res 40, merely obliges ( as a recommendation) that that the signatory nation accepts an ICC as "A" form of competency certification. It does not mandate recognition nor force a signatory country to introduce any competency certification at all.

(2) A signatory country " can" mandate an agency to test and issue ICCs , it doesn't actually have to

(3) A ICC is a competency cert that merely says that the holder is " regarded " as competent on his " own" boat. ( i.e. national flag) It is NOT a competency cert for charter or third party boat use ( my italics and quotes). It use in charter competency is outside the scope of Res 40 and hence why there is so much obfuscation and confusion.


(4) Countries can only issue ICCs to their own nationals, the EXCEPTION is that both the ISA ( Irish sailing association) and the RYA ( Royal Yachting Association) were recently granted approvals to issue ICCs to other nationals of countries that did not officially issue ICCs,

This is the basis upon which IYT issue ICCS to USA and Canadian yachtmens. Why the ASA then went on to develop their own, when the US could have easily signed Res 40, which is more a problem of the US and its relationship with the UN then anything nautical.

IYT which initially derived a lot of its legimacy from the ISA , and later the RYA/MCA hence have used that derogation to so issue ICCs


Note , there isn't ONE ICC. There are several variants for power and sail. For Inland use the CEVNI rules exam must be sat and the extension so applied to the ticket.

(5) Resolution 40 also allows signatory countries to use equivalent national certs as the basis for awarding the ICC, as long as the national cert meets the basic conditions as laid out in Res 40. This is the basis for the RYA / ISA and others issuing the cert in the back of Day Skipper,powerboat and advanced power tickets etc .

(6) Now the obfuscation

To my knowledge ( and yes thats it) Only two counties in Europe, DEMAND specific NAMED qualifications in order to charter or sail certain pleasure craft in their territorial waters . That is Croatia and Montenegro. They accept a wide variety of such certifications as has been detailed elsewhere on CF. This includes ASA certs etc. It worth pointing out that these countries do not accept commercial tickets for such purposes , but anecdotally I have heard they are accepted.

Enforcement of these rules can be haphazard and subject to local confusion too.

( I am unclear in respect of Albania)

Several other countries , most notably Portugal have a requirement that a " license " is required to operate a leisure boat, often depending on sea area operation, engine power etc. Countries like Portugal also operate under the basis of comity, in that they will not render illegal , things that are legal in friendly countries. ( these rules have limits of course)

Hence countries like Portugal and Greece will recognise other countries official national " licenses " , the problem of course comes from those pesky nautical countries that have no such " official license ". This is a grey area, on the basis of comity, such countries DO not and HAVE not made an issue for yachts from such flag countries , even if from time to time certain port officials have adopted a " officious " approach. Noone to my knowledge has been prosecuted on that basis.

Again I will re-state, to my detailed knowledge , the in regards the ICC, no country specifically requires it to charter or operate in it s waters in exclusion to any other competency cert. This is an area that sailing schools and the IYT for example have caused great confusion and obfuscation.

to summarise

The ICC is a useful addition for sailors in the Med and Europe ( and South Africa/ Australia) to demonstrate that they have achieved "some" level of competence. It is not an EXCLUSIVE requirement. Any competence certificate is better then none.

Certain countries have specific rules regarding charter , especially domestic charter , Greece , for example requires competency certification, but accepts a wide variety and the charter company can actually self certify in conjunction with the local police etc. Rules vary but again in no case is the ICC a unique requirement.


By and large the Med has a very relaxed approach to boating , entry and exit formalities and often rules are not applied even when they have the force of law and local officials have significant lee-way ( official or not ) in what happens. Long may it remain.

PS In that regard the EBA document is quite correct , but entirely taken out of context in the post that referenced it. ( it is demanded for inland only )

The ICC would have made a very useful standardised document, but unfortunately , in its implementation , countries have screwed with the whole concept , now leaving the cert in a kind of no-mans land
Dave

What it realistically boils down to is this.. it matters not a whit what the country concerned has signed.. the Port Captains are like a small town USA Sheriff... if he's having a bad day.. your screwed..
Choices are... stay in port for months fighting to be allowed to sail.. or.. do a simple test.. pay your pittance fee and sail free...
Your Choice...
And its not just an EU thing.. try pissing off the Port Captain in American Samoa for example and see how far you get...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

What it realistically boils down to is this.. it matters not a whit what the country concerned has signed.. the Port Captains are like a small town USA Sheriff... if he's having a bad day.. your screwed..
Choices are... stay in port for months fighting to be allowed to sail.. or.. do a simple test.. pay your pittance fee and sail free...
Your Choice...
And its not just an EU thing.. try pissing off the Port Captain in American Samoa for example and see how far you get...

indeed , real life always trumps rules !!!!