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Old 05-02-2015, 11:36   #16
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

Interesting, and thanks for the link.

My understanding is that the ICC is the only officially recognized certificate, though. This one sounds like it is accepted by *some* charter companies. The ICC is accepted by all.

I think the trouble is that the ICC is issued under a UN resolution, and because the US did not adopt that particular UN resolution, no US certificate is valid for getting the ICC. As such, the ASA came up with it's own version and went to the trouble of getting certain charter companies to accept it.

Seems silly -- the content is likely the same all the way around. Still, I'm in the process of getting the ICC, just to be on the safe side.

Happy sailing!
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Old 05-02-2015, 12:29   #17
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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Interesting, and thanks for the link.

My understanding is that the ICC is the only officially recognized certificate, though. This one sounds like it is accepted by *some* charter companies. The ICC is accepted by all.

I think the trouble is that the ICC is issued under a UN resolution, and because the US did not adopt that particular UN resolution, no US certificate is valid for getting the ICC. As such, the ASA came up with it's own version and went to the trouble of getting certain charter companies to accept it.

Seems silly -- the content is likely the same all the way around. Still, I'm in the process of getting the ICC, just to be on the safe side.

Happy sailing!
If you want to be 100% certain, get the ICC. But I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has sailing experience, any credentials at all, and a credit card who were turned away by a charter company. They'll usually bend over backwards to make whatever you have work.
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Old 05-02-2015, 13:19   #18
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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Originally Posted by dwareham View Post
Interesting, and thanks for the link.



My understanding is that the ICC is the only officially recognized certificate, though. This one sounds like it is accepted by *some* charter companies. The ICC is accepted by all.



I think the trouble is that the ICC is issued under a UN resolution, and because the US did not adopt that particular UN resolution, no US certificate is valid for getting the ICC. As such, the ASA came up with it's own version and went to the trouble of getting certain charter companies to accept it.



Seems silly -- the content is likely the same all the way around. Still, I'm in the process of getting the ICC, just to be on the safe side.



Happy sailing!

Charter companies in the med will accept a wide range of certificates. The ICC is only one of them
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Old 08-02-2015, 23:45   #19
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RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

Once again, be careful of what you read on this forum when looking into serious matters that may affect you. ASA will never be given authorization to issue the ICC. Why? For a few reasons already stated, plus the curriculum is not to standard and audit procedures are not in place. They have tried and failed. There own version is a joke and not accepted. Do not go to Europe without an ICC no matter what anyone tells you here on this forum. For the record IYT and RYA teach both IALA. A (Europe) AND IALA B ( North America) so no worries about driving on the wrong side of the road as someone mentioned. A few links below for you to research.

http://www.goproutila.com/iyt-rya-differences

http://www.iytworld.com


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Old 09-02-2015, 05:51   #20
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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Originally Posted by Sailing Cowboy View Post
Once again, be careful of what you read on this forum when looking into serious matters that may affect you. ASA will never be given authorization to issue the ICC. Why? For a few reasons already stated, plus the curriculum is not to standard and audit procedures are not in place. They have tried and failed. There own version is a joke and not accepted. Do not go to Europe without an ICC no matter what anyone tells you here on this forum. For the record IYT and RYA teach both IALA. A (Europe) AND IALA B ( North America) so no worries about driving on the wrong side of the road as someone mentioned. A few links below for you to research.

http://www.goproutila.com/iyt-rya-differences

http://www.iytworld.com


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This is an entirely misleading post. No European country legally demands the ICC exclusively. You can get by on any reasonable domestic certificate like ASA 101-104 or the ASA certificate of competency

Dave
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:08   #21
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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This is an entirely misleading post. No European country legally demands the ICC exclusively. You can get by on any reasonable domestic certificate like ASA 101-104 or the ASA certificate of competency

Dave

Dave. You have to stop telling people this. Your days as a past RYA instructor and the information you once understood have changed or are in the process of changing. Governments and policies are being changed as we speak with respect to Resolution 40 and what is and what isn't accepted by insurance companies, charter co & governments. You will hear more of this in the coming months. For now stop sending people into an area ill advised. Will some areas still accept anything that says "boating cert" YES. Will it continue that way. NO.

My post is not misleading but counter with your posts on this subject matter is wrong and dangerously misleading.


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Old 09-02-2015, 08:34   #22
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

Please provide documentary proof backed by actual instances of a statutory requirement that you must have a ICC, exclusively , no country on the planet has such a requirement

Please note the words " statutory requirement " and exclusively

Your constant ramblings about resolution 40 show your lack of understanding of the whole ICC process.

I am involved at a European level in leisure boating policy and I am not aware of any pending changes. While my days as an instructor have passed my involvement in policy has not.

The fact is an Irish or UK yachtsman or a US Yachtmans , does not legally require any " license ". Only two countries in Europe specifically by statutory law require " specific " named proof of competency for your own boat , irrespective of flag state. That is Croatia and Montenegro.

These are the facts. If you disagree please provide references and actual case law. This forum and others constantly mis represents the actual legal position, or starts relating what some port policeman says he " thinks " is the law.

Please don't mention Portugal. It applies the principles of comity. ( you do understand how that works )

Dave
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Old 09-02-2015, 12:06   #23
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Please provide documentary proof backed by actual instances of a statutory requirement that you must have a ICC, exclusively , no country on the planet has such a requirement

Please note the words " statutory requirement " and exclusively

Your constant ramblings about resolution 40 show your lack of understanding of the whole ICC process.

I am involved at a European level in leisure boating policy and I am not aware of any pending changes. While my days as an instructor have passed my involvement in policy has not.

The fact is an Irish or UK yachtsman or a US Yachtmans , does not legally require any " license ". Only two countries in Europe specifically by statutory law require " specific " named proof of competency for your own boat , irrespective of flag state. That is Croatia and Montenegro.

These are the facts. If you disagree please provide references and actual case law. This forum and others constantly mis represents the actual legal position, or starts relating what some port policeman says he " thinks " is the law.

Please don't mention Portugal. It applies the principles of comity. ( you do understand how that works )

Dave

Sorry Dave I didn't apply to be your personal legal assistant. You have to do your own homework. I have included a link for you directly to the European Boating Association and there comments on the subject.

http://www.eba.eu.com/site-documents...sition-icc.pdf

I want you to pay particular attention to Page 2 " Application of the ICC" and in particular and I quote:

"Notwithstanding this there are some countries that have not yet adopted Resolution 40 that will readily accept or even demand an ICC from visiting foreign yachtsmen as evidence of competence. "

There. I provided that to you "no charge". Your freebie for the day. Now I think you will agree the EBA is a little more in the know than "Dave from Cruisers forum" wouldn't you agree?

Quote:"I am involved at a European level in leisure boating policy"

That's a fairly tall claim Dave.
Can you provide us with the name of the Board, Committee or Commission that you currently sit on that determines leisure boating policy?

The bad in all of this is some cruiser is going to pull into a port and be asked for an ICC. They will reply with "Dave from Cruisers forum said I didn't need it and my wet paper bag ASA certificate would work".

What do you think they will think of you when they're turned around and sent packing?

Quote: "Your constant ramblings about resolution 40 show your lack of understanding of the whole ICC process."

I don't think it is I sir who has the lack of understanding, it is you.




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Old 10-02-2015, 17:36   #24
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

Sailing Cowboy
I suspect you have been briefed on the ICC by the good folks at IYT. I am sure the ICC works well for their revenue, same as the Cayman Islands Seamen's Discharge Book they used to peddle as the solution to almost all problems.

I value the contribution of IYT in offering international qualifications in the US, where the national licensing scheme excludes foreigners, but I know that they will say anything to sell one more thing. In particular; they will make stuff up about Europe because they sell to people who don't know. I have been there!

Can you please tell us what country actually requires an ICC and will not accept any other ticket?



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Old 10-02-2015, 19:31   #25
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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Sailing Cowboy
I suspect you have been briefed on the ICC by the good folks at IYT. I am sure the ICC works well for their revenue, same as the Cayman Islands Seamen's Discharge Book they used to peddle as the solution to almost all problems.

I value the contribution of IYT in offering international qualifications in the US, where the national licensing scheme excludes foreigners, but I know that they will say anything to sell one more thing. In particular; they will make stuff up about Europe because they sell to people who don't know. I have been there!

Can you please tell us what country actually requires an ICC and will not accept any other ticket?



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Three countries come to mind that have a statutory requirement - as in law - as in you get a stiff fine without it - to have a "license" to prove competency at even the basic recreational level. These are Canada, Australia and Malta.
What the ICC and resolution 40 has done, albeit not fully, is to harmonize entry level recreational certifications. It sets the minimum standard and provides a collaboration among signatory countries for a "border less" license if you will.

You will see similar situations with road drivers licenses. You have to be on the list. If you hold a license from a non listed issuer (rare) then no dice.

The disconnect here is that in recreational boating, especially in the US where a basic license is not required, all training and certification originated from local clubs who eventually grew into organizations.

These organizations have no authority to issue certifications. They are generally not properly quality managed - at least not to an international standard - and have never received government recognition.

Governments recognize other governments, particularly ones who have bilateral agreements for nautical licenses or are co-members in something like the UNECE and Resolution 40. They also recognize organizations those governments endorse/approve - but it has to be officially and not in kind.


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Old 10-02-2015, 19:39   #26
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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Sailing Cowboy
I suspect you have been briefed on the ICC by the good folks at IYT. I am sure the ICC works well for their revenue, same as the Cayman Islands Seamen's Discharge Book they used to peddle as the solution to almost all problems.

I value the contribution of IYT in offering international qualifications in the US, where the national licensing scheme excludes foreigners, but I know that they will say anything to sell one more thing. In particular; they will make stuff up about Europe because they sell to people who don't know. I have been there!

Can you please tell us what country actually requires an ICC and will not accept any other ticket?



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BTW....I don't think I have posted anything to suggests that no other ticket would be acceptable. I would imply that ICC is the bare minimum. They're many superior certs to the ICC that would be acceptable. Sounds like you have a beef with IYT and that's ok but remember its wasn't IYT who developed the ICC. They are just an issuer, like the RYA is as well.
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Old 11-02-2015, 04:19   #27
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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BTW....I don't think I have posted anything to suggests that no other ticket would be acceptable. I would imply that ICC is the bare minimum. They're many superior certs to the ICC that would be acceptable. Sounds like you have a beef with IYT and that's ok but remember its wasn't IYT who developed the ICC. They are just an issuer, like the RYA is as well.
I was referring toyour earlier post that says "do not go to Europe without an ICC" and that EBA document with the unfounded claim yhat you quoted.
I have no "beef" with IYT. I know them well (have their MoY ticket from their Ft L school, as well as a traditional RYA YM) and know that they can be a bit pushy when selling their tickets.

The RYA markets the ICC as a free add-on for their qualified members (Day Skipper and above) that want something to show in Croatia, Montenegro or the inland waterways of continental Europe. This is quite different from the ICC approach of selling it as a standalone course (which is not cheap) saying they cannot go to Europe without it.

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Old 11-02-2015, 08:10   #28
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RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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I was referring toyour earlier post that says "do not go to Europe without an ICC" and that EBA document with the unfounded claim yhat you quoted.
I have no "beef" with IYT. I know them well (have their MoY ticket from their Ft L school, as well as a traditional RYA YM) and know that they can be a bit pushy when selling their tickets.

The RYA markets the ICC as a free add-on for their qualified members (Day Skipper and above) that want something to show in Croatia, Montenegro or the inland waterways of continental Europe. This is quite different from the ICC approach of selling it as a standalone course (which is not cheap) saying they cannot go to Europe without it.

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What is "unfounded" about the EBA document? Looked legitimate to me and directly from there web site. Why would they produce a document that was completely false? I find your views on IYT not true in my case. The organization you describe sounds more like PADI to me.

IYT markets the ICC as a free add on when you complete the "International Bareboat Skipper" module as well and often times if you have another cert I.e ASA 104 you can challenge the ICC exam for a minimal amount of money without having to take the course. I have offered this a few times. My point is if all I had was the ASA 104 and I was traveling to Europe, I would challenge the ICC as a low cost option and have that as well just to be sure. An easy precaution to take and no surprises on the other end. You have superior certs to a ICC. Would you not agree with my rationale?


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Old 11-02-2015, 08:51   #29
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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I was referring toyour earlier post that says "do not go to Europe without an ICC" and that EBA document with the unfounded claim yhat you quoted.
I have no "beef" with IYT. I know them well (have their MoY ticket from their Ft L school, as well as a traditional RYA YM) and know that they can be a bit pushy when selling their tickets.

The RYA markets the ICC as a free add-on for their qualified members (Day Skipper and above) that want something to show in Croatia, Montenegro or the inland waterways of continental Europe. This is quite different from the ICC approach of selling it as a standalone course (which is not cheap) saying they cannot go to Europe without it.

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As a further note I should point out that RYA offers ICC for free as along as you pay their yearly membership fee of @$80 I believe.
IYT charges $78.00 CDN and its good for 5 years, so its cheaper than RYA. In Australia they offer RYA ICC through Yachting Australia but its more than double the cost of IYT's ICC. So those are some facts when it comes to cost on IYT. Doesn't sound like the organization you make it out to be?
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:55   #30
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Re: RYA Day Skipper Distance Learning

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What is "unfounded" about the EBA document?

Their claim that there is a country or countries that will "demand an ICC from visiting foreign yachtsmen as evidence of competence". I take that as an innocent writing error, but you make it important in rejecting Dave´s reasoning an facts.

You have already shot Dave instead of addressing what he said.

Now it´s me I am afraid.


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Why would they produce a document that was completely false?
Reading Comprehension 101. I did not say that the EBA document is "completely false". I just said (typo corrected) that the EBA document that you cited has an "unfounded claim that you quoted". The claim that is unfounded is that there are countries that "demand" an ICC (where they should say that there are countries that "accept" an ICC as one more of a list of things they accept).

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I find your views on IYT not true in my case.
Now I am in my PC and see your signature that mentions your affiliation with IYT; which was not visible in the smartphone client. I am sorry about the facts but they are what they are.

I have seen IYT peddle their ICC as "required" for US bareboaters going to Croatia who already have ASA certifications, when in fact Croatia will take any or almost any ASA certification. Read the following official document from the Croatian authority if this not clear to you.

http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...(2)%203_11.pdf

Have a good day

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