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Old 07-09-2007, 05:52   #1
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Hybrid Engines

I know we hyjacked a 420 thread for this discussion and to those subscibers I apologize. This topic is very interesting to me because:
-my profession is environmental consulting
-my wife and I do not prefer engine odors
-I am looking for a better way to manage the maintenance on diesels(oil changes primarially)
-I am considering a circumnavigation and realize that there are far more diesel mechanics in the world than hybrid engoine mechanics
-Like the notion of duplicate energy sources (power from a genset, solar,screw rotation

I want to know more
Thx
G
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Old 07-09-2007, 07:06   #2
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Hi
The articles I posted where intended for the people that are trying to sort out the benefits of buying a diesel hybrid, my apologies to those that feel hijacked.
As a company we have been under enormous pressure to instal a hybrid system. Our conclusion was that the only likely benefit would be, that one could isolate the the power source (genset) better and therfore have a quieter installation. At no time did we feel that there would be fuel consumption benefit as Nigel Calder states in his article, it will be impossible, in the real world.

I love the idea of one engine to look after, 3 is a real pain. We felt that The diesel electric system needs more time to be a fully functioning system.

Don't get me wrong,I desperately want to have a system that does work as advertised. It would be considerably easier to instal.

None of these issues address the big one which is the masssive premium that must be payed for such a system.
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Old 07-09-2007, 07:28   #3
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Call me old school. Having multiple engines is redundancy and safety. Having a traditional diesel is a well proven concept.
It will be past my lifetime before hybrids are easily accepted in small craft that go to sea.

My $.02 USD
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Old 07-09-2007, 08:15   #4
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hybrid drives

Welcome to the discussion Simon. I have one of your PDQ32 cats. I love the boat but from the start I was never wild about the outboards.

I hope to switch to a hybrid solution subject to testing results that I should obtain before my boat comes out of the water this year. I am working with a friend who has a company specializing in high efficiency motors and controls. We plan to hang a prototype drive off the back of the boat to determine power / performance numbers under various conditions before making the final committment.

I must confess that the fuel consumption issue is not one of my considerations. Maintaining performance under sail is important to me and as my boat has limited load capacity I am concerned about adding weight. I do not plan on a very large battery bank and will use a light diesel DC generator to provide power for extended motoring.

What I do hope to achieve:
- the ability to leave the marina and hoist the sails without starting an engine.
- the ability to use a slight electric boost to motor sail quietly on the many light air days we have in this part of the world
- quieter motoring on the wind less days - the genset will be in a sound isolated compartment - note also my target motoring speed is about 6 knots which is where I motor with the outboards as this seems to be the most efficient motoring speed for my boat - if you are looking for high speed motoring electrics are not the best option.
-having a good power source available for the possible future adds - electric windlass - electric winch for main - etc - the outboards just don't provide much juice
- keeping the admiral happy with power to run microwave
- minimizing engine run time - I have found that when on vacation in the BVIs we have far more engine run time charging batteries at anchor than we do while underway - have one engine with it's primary function as a charger seems to make more sense

I also have an eye on future developments in the batteries and solar. I believe that if a system is workable today it will only get better in the future when batteries will be lighter and have higher capacity. If solar panel technology gains lead to higher efficiency panels the genset usage will continue to drop and the opportunities for extended " electro sailing" will increase.

If you have not checked out the Outremar side by side comparison of their Hybrid VS standard drives it is an interesting read http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/IM...UTREMER_US.pdf
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Old 07-09-2007, 08:22   #5
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Has anyone had a chance to read the articles by Nigel Calder in Profesional boatbuilder magazine?. The articles are in number 106 and 107. His thoughts and opinions are I believe the most well thought out to date. It does seem though that he is going to ignore his own conclusions and go ahead with his Hybrid, although is not completly clear.
Simon
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Old 07-09-2007, 08:48   #6
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I have accomplished a first read of the first article but will not have time to (download) nor digest the second until this weekend. I truely desire to finish my review by Annapolis so that I may inspect some hybrid applications that I am sure will be there. Simon, will PDQ have a model there with a hybrid? I am looking forward to spending time on the 42.
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Old 07-09-2007, 08:50   #7
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We will not have a hybrid there. But we will have the 44 there
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:12   #8
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Nigel's articles

I have read the articles and would agree that for a power boat if your only consideration is fuel economy a hybrid is hard to justify. I think we need to wait for his next article to get his take on the wider range of issues / benefits to consider when looking at powering a sailboat.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:49   #9
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Agreed , however the sellers of these systems and boats have traditionally been selling them as being more fuel efficient. Although that is changing now as they are realiz the attraction of the systems is the potential for a quiet ride either as a short term battery only ride or a nicely installed genset.
Simon
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:54   #10
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There have been some rather positive reports of hybrid power on cats - see link below;;; http://fp01.fischerpanda.de/public/F...06_eng_v01.pdf
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Old 07-09-2007, 13:35   #11
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Certainly one of the better thought out applications. Have talked with Fischer Panda about this system. Last time I chatted to the American distributors they where not sure if they would be selling these systems in The U.S.A. My experience with F.P. was that they are a very sophisticted rpoduct and that you will pay for it. Very quiet system and very elegant construction.
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Old 07-09-2007, 13:48   #12
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I ran across this earlier this year. Have you seen this Simon or anyone else.
RE-E-POWER
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Old 07-09-2007, 14:18   #13
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I have seen them, they are just a little to small for our boats.
Simon
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Old 07-09-2007, 14:39   #14
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I will see you at the show
Can't wait to see the 44
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Old 07-09-2007, 22:04   #15
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Simon,

Great to have you participating in this thread. We've had some lively discussions about hybrid technology. I'd like to hear your opinion on the most significant stumbling blocks in getting a properly working hybrid system, aside from the obvious cost issue. In broad strokes, is it the motor, controller, genny, battery, system integration, or design philosophy that is the weak link? By design philosophy I'm referring to meeting the demands of owners in terms of how they want to use their boats, especially with respect to how long owners want to use battery power and whether or not they care about regenerative capability. Thanks.

Incidentally, I chartered a Lagoon 410 hybrid last winter. While the hybrid system worked flawlessly, the Fischer Panda genset was loud enough to make one forward stateroom unusable when running the a/c at night. Access to it for service was also miserable.

Brett
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