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Old 20-09-2007, 09:15   #31
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Bunch of reponses here
Good to see that you are alive and well Evan, Diane as well, of course. I suppose the little one is no longer little. We ahve had some serious knock down drag em out parties on the Cavu.

Ya these are lithium polymer batteries, scared the **** out of me at first. The numbers are outrageous. 80 kilos, 10KWH, $20k. 12 fed ex sized gooey packs all in a nice aluminum box. Ran the air conditiong all day long, wow. You are absolutely correct on overcharging, small meltdown occurrs, no where as resilient as lead acid.

Genset will be the limit as it is with all hybrids/ diesel electrics.

Hybrid cars work because of the opportunity for recouping power with the brakes, boats just do not work that way.

Third article from Nigel Calder has introduced a parallel system that works when needed, like cars do. His writing partner has the a patent on that system. Third article in Calder series now online.

Right you are about the term hybrid. Two types, Serial which is no batteries and the battery centric multiple input and output kind. Calder gets into this in this last article

AC induction genset is on the boat we just launcehed the electrical side of the genset is tiny, 10 kilos and 12kw. Very effiecient, very new, very leading edge, very scary for boat builders.

All other argumnets aside what is really driving this issue will never be effiecency but quietness, it's liking having a sewing machine running in your bilge.

Simon
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Old 20-09-2007, 10:33   #32
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One thing, the oppourtunity to recoup power while sailing is also available, I would suggest that 5 to 6 hours of sailing/day would eliminate the need to run the diesel at all.

Depending on the wind of course.
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Old 20-09-2007, 11:29   #33
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For anybody that has done extended cruising you quickly realize that the concept of right wind is actually an urban myth.

All kidding aside the ineffiecency of the propellor alone is massive, your losses elsewhere reduce the charging to a trickle. Mr. Calder suggests that regenerative power will be useful to only a handful of sailors that adhere to strict regimen of sailing and very low consumption of power. He's right, the numbers just do not add up for tha average boater, or certainly not for our customers.
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Old 20-09-2007, 11:37   #34
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Simon is that with a regenerative VFD, we see efficiencies of 60% in the electric side and up to 30 % on the prop side, stationary in a river.

So that would be 18% eff. running with a 1 knot penalty on a large boat would provide about 5.5 kW. That would be a 1000 watts for 6 hours or at 12V 500amphrs

That enough for me.

The 1 knot penalty would occur when operating well below hull speed, it would be much less of a penalty at or newr hull speed.
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Old 20-09-2007, 12:10   #35
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My customers come to stop at the end of the day put on the THREE air conditioners totaling 32000 btu's worth or aproximately 2.5 kilowatts plus the microwave to steam some veggies, some lights and then tuck themselves in to watch a movie on there 32" flat screen. As I said this simply will not work for our customers. And our customers or ones with 500k to spend are the ones that are buying these systems.

I really wish that D/E would work, it would be sooooo much easier to instal and look after

Simon
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Old 20-09-2007, 12:27   #36
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DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS

Clearly Simon the kind of user you describe would be best served with a good generator or two and a couple electric motors for propulsion. With the big power expectations at the end of the day power generation is the number one priority and since you will have lots of power available it makes seems to make sense to use electric motors for driving.

For those us us who still enjoy candle light and are happy to leave the TV ashore batteries may play a more significant role.
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Old 20-09-2007, 13:44   #37
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Yes using off the shelf equipment, it would be a little heaviey than the conventiosl way.

The toyota highland rear wheel drive motor generator for 50 kW only weighs about 75 lbs.

We will likely have to wait until this technology is more attainable.
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Old 20-09-2007, 13:48   #38
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HYBRID SYNERGY DRIVE: INFORMATION TERMINAL Try this link it might surprise you.
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Old 20-09-2007, 15:21   #39
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High all. My name is Graeme and I am a washed up cruiser. Having spent 4.5 years sailing from England to New Zealand, in a 26' leaky wooden boat, our children appeared so we gave up sailing for a while. Now back in England and building a larger boat to go family cruising ( a WYLO 32). About 5 years ago I started investigating hybrid systems and have now made this my business. I have helped Nigel in writhing the 3 articles in PBB by providing a lot of the technical info. I also plan to attend IBEX in October where there will a question and answer session. I am currently working on a parallel hybrid system that I think has considerable commercial merit. I am not sure how the forum works and have just registered. Let's see what happens ?
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Old 20-09-2007, 15:39   #40
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Welcome Graeme - I think you will find this is one of the better forums for constructive discussions of boating issues - we look forward to input based on your experiences to date.
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Old 21-09-2007, 02:54   #41
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Welcome aboard Graeme. We welcome the participation of someone with your knowledge & experience.

Graeme’s collaboration with Nigel Calder (“Hybrid Marine Power - Part 1") appears in the June/July issue of Professional Boatbuilder magazine (pages 82-95):
Professional BoatBuilder - June/July 2007

See also:
Hawksley Silicon Systems Ltd ~ Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion (HEMP): Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion - Home
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Old 21-09-2007, 03:43   #42
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If you don't mind questions could you give your thoughts please.
I am seriously considering a dual electric drive, 7kW each, powered by directly driven permanent magnet generators. Two diesels, no batts and no controllers, diesel speed sets propulsion power. If output voltage stays below 150V then an Outback MX60 solar charger can do double duty with solar panels too charge the house bank.
Both Lynch and Perm suggest this is feasable. What are your thoughts?

Mike
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Old 22-09-2007, 22:53   #43
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Originally Posted by jscott View Post
One thing, the oppourtunity to recoup power while sailing is also available, I would suggest that 5 to 6 hours of sailing/day would eliminate the need to run the diesel at all.

Depending on the wind of course.
Yes, depending on the wind...
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Old 23-09-2007, 10:36   #44
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Coot,

It looks like we often sail in the same conditions!

<sarcasm>

Steve B.
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Old 24-09-2007, 12:44   #45
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You are rigth there are many more diesel mechanics around than specialists in Hybrid propulsion, the reason is that Hybris has not been around that long and you have to split hybrid into 2 systems
1 is the diesel generator and
2 the electric motors that can be serviced worldwide.
Chances of an electric motor to fail are very slim and the chance that a diesel generator fails is also limited as long as the right mainteneca is given. The advantage of this system is 1 or 2 less diesel to service or to fail on you.
A brushless permanent magnet electric motor needs no maintenance at alland a diesel gen set once every 200 hours.
We at african cats have developed the ultimate hybrid system that we are now putting thru the test of 3000 hous continue use to simulate 10 years of use with our new underwater electric motogen. After this test is finished we will install these retractable motogens on a new FastCat 435 for 2 Atlantice crossing and a total distance traveled of 30.000 NM or as much as a trip around the world.
This cat will be equipped with 860 watts of solar power and a masthead wind generator plus the 4 Kw per side hydro power if the motogens are under water when sailing.I expect that this will all work out well and than we have created the ultimate green and clean sailing catamaran. Afyter all testing is finished these motogens will also come available to other boat builders and or as replacement propulsion both for monohulls and catamarans.
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