Edson Steering Conduit Pull-Pull System Evaluation

[atoll]

I am looking at fitting the Edson/whitlock conduit wire /chain system on my prout 37 ft catamaran.

http://www.americanriggingsupply.com...Components.pdf

I was wondering if anybody else has this system,and would like to comment on its effectiveness.

a direct wire sheave/pully system would be my first choice,but the layout would require too many pulleys for it to work properly.

hydraulic steering is another option but since I already have a" stand alone" hydraulic auto pilot ram that has a clutch and would attach directly to the steering arm,and work well with the direct wire system I would prefer to go with a mechanical system.

I already have the bulkhead steering chain and sprocket mount for the Edson steering wheel so the installation would only require the conduits and cables making up together with two brackets and attaching to the rudder crossbar.

any input greatly appreciated

[Snowpetrel]

May not be any help, but i used what I am pretty sure was a pull pull system on a benetau oceanus 350 many years ago on a delivery. I dont know if it was edson. At the time it was quite stiff but functional after a few hard years with probably poor charterboat maintenance. It may have been that a bit of lube would have made all the difference...

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

May not be any help, but i used what I am pretty sure was a pull pull system on a benetau oceanus 350 many years ago on a delivery. I dont know if it was edson. At the time it was quite stiff but functional after a few hard years with probably poor charterboat maintenance. It may have been that a bit of lube would have made all the difference...

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

the 2 conduit runs would be 21ft and 15 ft running to either side of each hull,with the bare cable meeting in the middle of the cross member box section and connecting to the tiebar.

alternatively 2 conduit runs of 15 ft to one hull,with a pully in the opposite hull.

I see there is also an option to add a grease nipple midway in the conduit.

I would agree that dried out grease or corroded cable would create a lot of friction and make steering difficult.

it would be interesting to know if amsteel/dyneema might work better than stainless cable,creating less wear on the internal Teflon sleave,and not need lubrication,as well as not corroding.

[colemj]

Manta uses the Edson pull-pull system. If you have a rigid tie-bar, that helps a lot. They system works well, although it is a bit stiffer than others - but I think that is more about us not having a rigid tie-bar between the two rudders.

The plastic grease conduits break easily - get the bronze ones if you go that way. Also get the aluminum conduit end fittings instead of the plastic ones. The plastic ones are really cheap. Frankly, I find Edson stuff to be cheap crap at high prices. When you get your expensive conduit end fittings, you will find that Edson used a mild steel nut on it. Immediately throw that out, go to a hardware store and pay 50 cents for a stainless nut - the Edson one rusts badly in short order. Check all their supplied hose clamps also - you will probably be replacing all of them with ones that have stainless screws in them. This type of cheapness pretty much defines Edson gear.

Mark

[atoll]

Originally Posted by colemj

Manta uses the Edson pull-pull system. If you have a rigid tie-bar, that helps a lot. They system works well, although it is a bit stiffer than others - but I think that is more about us not having a rigid tie-bar between the two rudders.

The plastic grease conduits break easily - get the bronze ones if you go that way. Also get the aluminum conduit end fittings instead of the plastic ones. The plastic ones are really cheap. Frankly, I find Edson stuff to be cheap crap at high prices. When you get your expensive conduit end fittings, you will find that Edson used a mild steel nut on it. Immediately throw that out, go to a hardware store and pay 50 cents for a stainless nut - the Edson one rusts badly in short order. Check all their supplied hose clamps also - you will probably be replacing all of them with ones that have stainless screws in them. This type of cheapness pretty much defines Edson gear.

Mark

It looks like I will be using the Lewmar "constalation" conduit and their alloy conduit ends,which is what is available over here.

I'm not sure of the conduit composition,but the company does have a good rep for marine gear.

I would be interested to know aprox how long your conduit runs are,and if there are any intermediate sheaves in the system.

[atoll]

Constellation™ Wire-in Conduit System
Due to their ease of installation, wire-in conduit systems have largely replaced open wire for
centre cockpit yachts. Advances in conduit technology have resulted in Constellation systems
that are simple to install and easy to maintain. Self contained sheave assemblies have been
developed to fit into the conduit route, eliminating the requirement for re-enforced pads.
Lewmar offer a range of components to complete your wire-in conduit installation, including
conduit end fittings, conduit greasers and terminal units to align the cables with the quadrants.
Most common conduit installation for centre cockpit yachts up
to 12m/40'. To achieve the maximum sensitivity and life from a
conduit system please follow the following rules:
1. Keep the number of bends to a minimum.
2. Do not exceed 270° of total curves.
3. Avoid ‘S’ bends.
4. Orientate the quadrant to achieve the best conduit lead.
5. Minimum bend radius 200mm/8".
Illustrated is a typical 15m/50' centre cockpit installation, utilising
conduit from the pedestal to the conduit sheave adaptor. The
steering then follows the curve of the hull in conduit, terminating
at an articulated terminal unit.
Features

http://www.lucky-wave.com/a_nautical...r/Steering.pdf


Most common conduit installation for centre cockpit yachts up
to 12m/40'. To achieve the maximum sensitivity and life from a
conduit system please follow the following rules:
1. Keep the number of bends to a minimum.
2. Do not exceed 270° of total curves.
3. Avoid ‘S’ bends.
4. Orientate the quadrant to achieve the best conduit lead.
5. Minimum bend radius 200mm/8".

Simple to install
• Ultimate reliability
• Pedestal or bulkhead mounting for wheels
• Heavy duty double armoured conduit with
low-friction liner to ensure efficiency
• In-line conduit greasers

[colemj]

Originally Posted by atoll

It looks like I will be using the Lewmar "constalation" conduit and their alloy conduit ends,which is what is available over here.

I'm not sure of the conduit composition,but the company does have a good rep for marine gear.

I would be interested to know aprox how long your conduit runs are,and if there are any intermediate sheaves in the system.

They are 23' and 27' and 36' (we have cable as a cross-tie) with no intermediate sheaves.

The alloy fittings sound much more rugged than Edson's plastic ones.

Mark

[roland stockham]

Love the simplicity of cable steering but I an just replacing mine for two reasons. With a center cockpit the length of the runs and the number of turns meant significant drag, makes steering harder work and causes problems with the wind vane. Second is cost. Conduit and pulleys are far more expensive than the same length of hydraulic pipe so longer runs get very expensive. Also liner pilot drives are more expensive than hydraulic ones. With a 16ft run of cable it was cheaper to convert to hydraulic. If you do go cable make sure pulleys are well aligned and preferable have conduit or guides for cable entry. I had several problems with cable jumping off pulleys on the slack side and then jamming

[Captain Fred]

I had an Edson pull-pull system on my Dickerson 41 ketch and would not recommend it.
The runs were about 14' on each side and they had been installed with no lube fittings instead of one every 6' as Edson now recommends. The steering was so stiff my wife could not steer in breezy conditions nor could my autopilot. When I called Edson for advice they advised replacing it with new tubes, which I recall would have cost $2100. I sold the boat instead.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by colemj

They are 23' and 27' and 36' (we have cable as a cross-tie) with no intermediate sheaves.

The alloy fittings sound much more rugged than Edson's plastic ones.

Mark

thanks
my conduit runs would be 21' and 15' if running conduit to both hulls,and eliminate the need for a sheave,as I assume your conduits are run?

the other alternative being to twin the conduits to the closer hull,giving twin runs of 15 feet,but it would require a pully in the far hull to complete the circle.
this in turn would possibly create a weak point for the cable,and derailment if the cable ever got slack.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by atoll

thanks
my conduit runs would be 21' and 15' if running conduit to both hulls,and eliminate the need for a sheave,as I assume your conduits are run?

Yes, we have a conduit run from the wheel to each hull quadrant, as well as a conduit run between the hulls as the tie-bar. No sheaves.

Mark

[Cadence]

PM me. I have a Hynautic system, never used. Two tapered helms and a keyed shaft helm for an autopilot. Ram, bypass valve and tank.


Or any one else that may be interested. roger.moren@Comcast.net

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Cadence

PM me. I have a Hynautic system, never used. Two tapered helms and a keyed shaft helm for an autopilot. Ram, bypass valve and tank.


Or any one else that may be interested. roger.moren@Comcast.net

sent pm thanks

[acove]

If it all possible, it is best to avoid conduit in steering systems. It adds friction, cost, and additional maintenance. Conduit is only used when there is no other reasonable alternative. A few boats, typically center cockpit models, puts us boat owners in the position of having to use it...

If you do need to go down that road:

a) Minimize the length of the conduit runs. If it doesn't need to be there, don't use it.

b) Minimize bends and use sheaves wherever possible (for example, if you need to make a 90 bend, use two straight lengths of conduit and a sheave - this is a little more expensive, but it will more than make up for it in feel).

c) Install lubrication points along the conduit run. Ideally, this should be done every 5', but only if you can get to it (otherwise it doesn't do you much good). Keep in mind that the end fittings also serve as lubrication points - just turn the wheel to suck in the teflon grease.


Keep in mind that the conduit (made by Edson or lewmar/whitlock) has a synthetic liner, then spring steel, and then a plastic cover. Over time, the plastic liner wears away - lubrication will help a lot though in extending its life. Eventually though, this will cause additional friction and the steering wire will start to rub on the spring steel. Since the spring steel is tougher, the steering wire will eventually start to loose strands and either fail under load or birds-nest inside the conduit and make it impossible to steer. So, know that conduit needs to eventually be replaced and always lubricated.

Conduit can also add a fair amount of play into a steering system, especially with long runs. It can twist and wiggle a little as it is compressed - equating directly to a mushy feeling helm. That said, if you pin it down along the length of the run, it will not be able to deflect much and your steering will feel much better. A metal strap of fairlead should do the trick for this.

The conduit end fittings can certainly take some strain, especially if the conduit tries to take a relatively hard angle right after them. I've come across a variety of these fittings (and each time I wish to myself that the boat just had sheaves and no conduit). There are different sizes, for different size conduit. Edson's smaller one is Celcon (another name for Delrin - quite strong and used regularly for marine parts) and the larger one is 6061 aluminum. Lewmar/whitlock's are some grade of aluminum - tough to tell exactly, due to the state of most of them that I have seen after some time in action. At the end of the day, I have seen all sorts of issues with various end fittings, but almost all of them have been due to the installation (including allowing them to get a daily dose of saltwater).

Lot's to think about here, hope it helps with your project.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by acove

size conduit. Edson's smaller one is Celcon (another name for Delrin - quite strong and used regularly for marine parts

Owning a system with these components, I can tell you that they are not Delrin, and not strong at all. They appear to be just common plastic, like a cheap above-water thruhull. They break quite easily with little force necessary.

I do wish they were more as you describe.

Mark