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Old 12-09-2008, 18:59   #1
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De-Bond 5200 and Silicone!

Today, I had to remove an anodized gooseneck base and a couple of anodized sheave boxes from a mast I'm overhauling. They were bonded with silicone adhesive, as well as being machine screwed into the mast. I used a product called Marine Formula to break the bond of the sealant. I was amazed. As they advertise, "This stuff Really Works!". No bull. It will now occupy a permanent space in my tool bag. I used it on some other parts that had 3M 5200. Same great results. It saved me many hours of work. So I wanted to share.

Here's the website: Marine Formula
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Old 13-09-2008, 20:09   #2
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Thanks Roy, 5200 has been reffered to as "Death Paste" forever. I will get some dbond and give it a try.
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Old 14-09-2008, 04:50   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Today, I had to remove an anodized gooseneck base and a couple of anodized sheave boxes from a mast I'm overhauling. They were bonded with silicone adhesive, as well as being machine screwed into the mast. I used a product called Marine Formula to break the bond of the sealant...
... I used it on some other parts that had 3M 5200. Same great results. It saved me many hours of work. So I wanted to share.
The gooseneck may have been sealed and bedded with Silicone; but was not bonded, as Silicone has little adhesive & structural strength. The Silicone should have very easily de-bonded with little effort and no chemical agent.
As noted, 5200 (Polyurethane) is a very different matter.
Glad to hear the product works to de-bond Polyurethane adhesives.
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Old 14-09-2008, 08:18   #4
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It also works well with BoatLife LifeCaulk
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Old 14-09-2008, 09:42   #5
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Gord, with all respect, if it walks and talks like a duck....... The silicone stuck the sheave boxes and gooseneck plates so firmly that NOTHING, could make them budge, no amount of beating, prying, swearing or hopeful glances upwards. The folks at my local marine supply store suggested I try the debonding stuff. Within ten minutes the plates popped off. Silicone adheres, hence it is an adhesive. I agree it isn't as profound as the polyurethanes, and so I don't use it. I'm quite pleased it also works well with 5200, since that is my preference and I have to remove it, from time to time. Silicone, by the way, is used as an adhesive, as well as sealant, in many industrial applications, and has withstood some pretty severe testing regimens and engineering reviews. It still isn't what I prefer, though, but if I ever have to remove something that is acutely stuck (what I call bonding), I'll use the de-bonding Marine Formula.
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Old 14-09-2008, 13:44   #6
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Roy: Sorry, I'm unable to perform an effective fact check this week; but I belive that polurethane has about a 2000 psi shear strength, joining aluminum parts; vs about 500 psi for silicone.
I don't know of anyone who would choose silicone as a structural adhesive.
I doubt if it was silicone (perhaps a "modified" silicone & "something: product?); if you couldn't pry, peel or otherwise remove the parts.

In order to judge the intent of your opening remark, I need to know just how much respect do you think I am due.
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Old 14-09-2008, 14:47   #7
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Gord,
As a "structural" adhesive try most aquariums. Granted this is a sailing forum but all many aquariums are held together with is silicone.

I do agree that on a boat in trying to "join" two items together and the mechanical fastening isn't what will hold them together then silicone isn't the product to choose.
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Old 14-09-2008, 16:25   #8
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Roy: Sorry, I'm unable to perform an effective fact check this week; but I belive that polurethane has about a 2000 psi shear strength, joining aluminum parts; vs about 500 psi for silicone.
I don't know of anyone who would choose silicone as a structural adhesive.
I doubt if it was silicone (perhaps a "modified" silicone & "something: product?); if you couldn't pry, peel or otherwise remove the parts.

In order to judge the intent of your opening remark, I need to know just how much respect do you think I am due.
Here's a quick check from West Marine West Marine: West Advisor
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Old 14-09-2008, 17:31   #9
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Gord, I agree with you as to the relative merits of silicone vs. almost anything else, but it's still classed as an adhesive. The parts I was able to separate were installed by ze French, about 9-10 years ago on a Catana 431 catamaran mast, about 60+ feet high. If I had not had the product, I would have been totally unable to pull them apart. I mention this stuff because most of us use 5200 and have to undo our handiwork (or someone else's) from time to time, and this stuff really works. And I still love and respect you (kiss,kiss).
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Old 15-09-2008, 08:23   #10
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Gord, silicon sealant is generally much cheaper than the fancy stuff. Given the right substrate, the right surface prep, enough surface area, the right load ranges...it is the perfect adhesive material because it is "good enough" and way cheaper. Just don't use it to bond the wings onto an Airbus.

Horses for courses, as they say.
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Old 15-09-2008, 09:00   #11
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Silicone is great for aquariums - BUT, clear only. Adding pigment to silicone dramatically affects its strength. Yes, there are black silicone sealed aquariums. Not in my house. As a lifelong reef-keeper, I can tell you that CLEAR silicone works extremely well in only SOME situations. Such as glass to glass bonding.
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Old 15-09-2008, 09:14   #12
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Exclamation Silicone is evil

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Gord, silicon sealant is generally much cheaper than the fancy stuff. Given the right substrate, the right surface prep, enough surface area, the right load ranges...it is the perfect adhesive material because it is "good enough" and way cheaper. Just don't use it to bond the wings onto an Airbus.

Horses for courses, as they say.
Silicone is not only a poor sealant, and a worse adhesive but it contaminates the surfaces with Silicone oil. This oil is nearly impossible to remove. Silicone should only be used in a narrow range of applications and never as a general purpose sealant.

For further grist for the mill see;

Silicone Dont use it and why.

and Silicone is truly evil.
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Old 15-09-2008, 10:08   #13
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Funny story about Silicone..

Funny story about Silicone:

In 1995 I purchased two Current Designs Solstice Kevlar sea kayaks. These were beautifully crafted vacuum bagged 18' boats that weighed about 45 pounds. I paid BIG money for these boats and loved them. Well after a few trips I was noticing water in the aft water tight compartment where your gear is stowed.

Kayaks are made in two pieces the deck and the hull then glassed together in a tricky process. To make a long story short I met the factory rep at one of my local retailers and we dunked the sterns of the kayaks into the demo pond vertically. I stuck my head in the aft compartment and there were about a dozen pin hole leaks squirting water into the boat along the seam. Both of my 3k boats were inflicted with this problem! The rep told me how to attempt a fix and I did with NO luck. I even went to a body shop supplier and got a special "silicone remover" that also did NADA.

After my unsuccessful attempt at repair we sent them back to the manufacturer for repair during the middle of the summer. After about four weeks I got a call from the rep that the boats were un-repairable. Current Designs built me brand new boats and shipped them to me.

How did this happen? The story i was told is that a "motor head" who worked in the glass shop was using silicone tire gel on his lunch break to detail his tires on his car and after lunch contaminated a number of boats during the hull to deck assembly.

The moral of this story is that in my situation neither myself nor the manufacturer could fix this problem even with judicious sanding and the use of very dangerous chemicals. NOTHING would remove this silicone and prevent the fish eyes. Current Designs ate 6k worth of kayaks due to the carelessness of one employee. I don't know how many other boats were totaled but I'm sure it was more than just mine..

Silicone has very few legitimate uses on boats and generally is NOT allowed on board mine....

Oh and my guess is that piece was installed with a Silicone hybrid product not straight silicone as I've yet to come across ANY silicone bedded fitting that I could not just yank off with about 1/3 to 1/2 arm strength.
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Old 15-09-2008, 10:29   #14
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Gord,

Hope you're wrong on silicone as an adhesive. My shower in the new bathroom is all glass and held in place by silicone. Also all the under counter sinks are held in place by silicone!!
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Old 15-09-2008, 11:55   #15
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Silicone will stick to some things. My experience is a boat isn't one of them. Can't count the number of sillycone bedded parts I've had to remove over the years because of leaks. The stuff is just evil to work with and nearly impossible to get off short of grinding. On my current new to me boat, I'm slowly removing and rebedding all the hardware the PO installed with sillycone, ARGGHHH!!!

Mahalo for the info on the debond product. Hope it works as well as you intimate.

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