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Old 24-02-2012, 19:22   #31
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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Originally Posted by davisr View Post
Maine89,

Your proposed set-up makes sense, and it's one that I might just follow. There's a very active member of the Ericson Yacht Owners forum who installed these same ProTech detectors two years ago. I've tried to reply to his thread several times this evening to ask him for an updated report, but apparently there is some unusual glitch that is preventing me from respon ding. Perhaps it's because I'm on a different computer. At any rate, here's the thread.

CO detector surprise

You might be interested to know what I discovered when I stopped by the local West Marine this afternoon. As many people have said on many different threads, CO detectors only have a 5 year life-span. So walk to the safety aisle at WM and pull each of the MTI, Inc. CO detectors (60-541) off the rack. All three of them had packages that described the 5 year limit, and all three of them had detectors inside that indicated they expired in 2013. The one Xintex CMD-4MR that was on the rack was almost one year old. Looks to me like they don't sell a whole lot of these marine detectors. I pointed this out to the associate and he removed the MTI detectors from the rack, but not the Xintex. Just a cautionary tale. Makes you wonder what you'd get if you ordered one of these from a online source.

Roscoe
Hopefully you can get an update from him That is an interesting observation on the MTI/Fireboy. I agree there's a level of risk with the online purchase.. I wouldn't be surprised if they sent the oldest model.

Hopefully the ProTech checks out. I would really like a marine grade with the LCD. It has wall mounting clip and I hope that is sturdy against heeling/guest stumbling.
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Old 24-02-2012, 19:45   #32
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

Maine 89,

Yes, I really would like to have that LCD information as well. From the way the Ericson owner describes it in that thread I pasted, it was quite enlightening to see just how much the CO levels fluctuated. Having that knowledge allowed him to make the necessary adjustments to his cabin to lower the CO levels as much as possible. The hard-wired marine detectors just sit there and make you wonder if they are sensing any of these changes.

Roscoe
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Old 24-02-2012, 19:56   #33
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

There seems to be reference online to UL 2034 and a supplement for UL 2034 for Marine use. The marine use might be an additional specification over regular UL 2034 ("Standard for Safety for Single and
Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms")? Maybe the PT isn't even "marine grade"? Putting in on the level of the other home versions that cost $20 less?

Also worth noting the MTI is rated for "Widest Operational Temperature Range Available:-40°F to +158°F" and the PT has "Operating Temp: 40°F to 100°F"
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Old 24-02-2012, 20:13   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
Umm, diesels should not produce CO in significant quantities unless they are being operated in an overfueled (overloaded) condition or if there is a big problem with fuel atomization. Unlike the case with petrol engines, there is always an excess of combustion air in the cylinders of a diesel, up until the point that overloading/overfueling starts to occur. CO is produced by insufficient oxygen in the combustion process, which always occurs to a slight extent (at least) when you're attempting to burn a stoichiometric mixture (since it is nearly impossible to hit the stoichiometric mixture precisely and consistently throughout the fuel/air charge of a petrol engine's cylinder). That condition does not occur in a properly functioning, properly regulated, not overloaded diesel.

Of course not all diesels are properly functioning, properly regulated, and not overloaded all the time, so one should not be too complacent about it; nevertheless, in theory, diesels do not produce CO, or hardly any, by the nature of their combustion process, so I don't think it is quite right to treat the idea, disdainfully, as a "myth".
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Old 24-02-2012, 20:14   #35
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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Speaking from personal experience, diesel emits CO- even at idle. It doesn't make as much as a gas engine. Diesel exhaust is also a suspected carcinogen.

ANY combustion causes CO. It's a scientific fact.
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Old 24-02-2012, 20:39   #36
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Quote:
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ANY combustion causes CO. It's a scientific fact.
Not true. Quite obviously, burning hydrogen does not produce any CO whatsoever, just to name one example.

CO production is not inherent to combustion. It comes from incomplete combustion of carbon or hydrocarbon fuels. No or extremely little CO will be produced from the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel if there is plenty of air involved, over a long enough period of time, conditions which don't exist in gasoline engines by design, which is why they inherently produce CO. Diesels have a different combustion principle.
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Old 24-02-2012, 21:05   #37
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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CO production is not inherent to combustion. It comes from incomplete combustion of carbon or hydrocarbon fuels.
Ok. And diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon fuel.

While a well-functioning diesel engine produces RELATIVELY little CO in comparison to a gasoline engine, it would be irresponsible to suggest that lethal amounts of CO cannot be produced by a diesel engine, as has been asserted numerous times on numerous internet sailing forums.

There's an argument out there, even on this thread, that claims that one doesn't need CO detectors on boats with diesel engines. That's just plain wrong.
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Old 24-02-2012, 21:52   #38
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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Agreed. On a previous boat with a more primitive CO sensor, I once had the sensor go off when a boat ran its diesel generator upwind of me in a marina. It was a hot day, and I had multiple open hatches on my boat at the time. Hard to imagine I was in any danger at that point.

As far as the original question is concerned, I prefer a sensor that is hard-wired into the 12v system. Nothing worse than having a neighbor's 9v battery go bad when he's going to be off the boat for two weeks. The whole marina gets to listen to his CO monitor chirp until the battery finally dies.

Not a great way to make friends.
Had the same thing. Gas generator, a wind kicked from the stern blowing some exhaust into the fully open cabin and the CO alarm started beeping scaring the **** out of all of us. It was one of the main reasons I was happy to see the "smart" CO detector variety.
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Old 25-02-2012, 06:44   #39
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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Originally Posted by maine89 View Post
There seems to be reference online to UL 2034 and a supplement for UL 2034 for Marine use. The marine use might be an additional specification over regular UL 2034 ("Standard for Safety for Single and
Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms")? Maybe the PT isn't even "marine grade"? Putting in on the level of the other home versions that cost $20 less?

Also worth noting the MTI is rated for "Widest Operational Temperature Range Available:-40°F to +158°F" and the PT has "Operating Temp: 40°F to 100°F"
That's really helpful to know that the ProTech has such a narrow operating temp. Here in Charleston it would not be hard to go beyond that range in winter and summer. The ProTech really does appear to be made for household use, but then again, it does have the ability to be detached from the mounting service when not in use. The Ericson owner I referenced in that thread is a liveaboard in So Cal, so he might not experience those temperatures, but then again I've only been to So Cal once. Still having trouble posting a response on the Ericson forum.

Roscoe
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Old 25-02-2012, 07:06   #40
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Ok. And diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon fuel.

While a well-functioning diesel engine produces RELATIVELY little CO in comparison to a gasoline engine, it would be irresponsible to suggest that lethal amounts of CO cannot be produced by a diesel engine, as has been asserted numerous times on numerous internet sailing forums.

There's an argument out there, even on this thread, that claims that one doesn't need CO detectors on boats with diesel engines. That's just plain wrong.
Oh really...I know of dozens and dozens of diesel powered boats that get by perfectly well without a CO detector therefore I suggest there would be many thousands of boats world wide without them and operating without a poisoning the crew with CO.

Do you have any evidence to suggest there is a genuine problem with CO poisoning being caused by diesel powered yachts.

Of course the reason that CO is such a problem is that it is odorless and given the normal stink of most (all?) diesel exhausts then even if there is any small amount CO in it, the smell of the "normal" exhaust would be sufficient warning.
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Old 25-02-2012, 07:54   #41
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

I use two detectors, this one Marine Technologies Boat Carbon Monoxide Detectors in the forward part of the solon.

And this one, a combo with LP detector in the galley area. Dual Propane/LP & Carbon Monoxide Alarms
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Old 25-02-2012, 07:55   #42
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

We have 3 programmable First Alert One Link combo smoke & carbon monoxide detectors on board. When smoke or carbon monoxide is detected. They all alarm and a voice tells you where the danger is.
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Old 25-02-2012, 15:57   #43
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by davisr View Post
Maine89,

Your proposed set-up makes sense, and it's one that I might just follow. There's a very active member of the Ericson Yacht Owners forum who installed these same ProTech detectors two years ago. I've tried to reply to his thread several times this evening to ask him for an updated report, but apparently there is some unusual glitch that is preventing me from respon ding. Perhaps it's because I'm on a different computer. At any rate, here's the thread.

CO detector surprise

You might be interested to know what I discovered when I stopped by the local West Marine this afternoon. As many people have said on many different threads, CO detectors only have a 5 year life-span. So walk to the safety aisle at WM and pull each of the MTI, Inc. CO detectors (60-541) off the rack. All three of them had packages that described the 5 year limit, and all three of them had detectors inside that indicated they expired in 2013. The one Xintex CMD-4MR that was on the rack was almost one year old. Looks to me like they don't sell a whole lot of these marine detectors. I pointed this out to the associate and he removed the MTI detectors from the rack, but not the Xintex. Just a cautionary tale. Makes you wonder what you'd get if you ordered one of these from a online source.

Roscoe
I was finally able to post a response to the above mentioned thread this morning. The Ericson owner responded and said that he's been satisfied with the performance of the ProTech detectors in his boat over the past two years. You'll see, I also reference another Ericson owner who also expressed satisfaction with the ProTechs.

CO detector surprise

Roscoe
Ericson 25
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Old 26-02-2012, 10:23   #44
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Ok. And diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon fuel.

While a well-functioning diesel engine produces RELATIVELY little CO in comparison to a gasoline engine, it would be irresponsible to suggest that lethal amounts of CO cannot be produced by a diesel engine, as has been asserted numerous times on numerous internet sailing forums.

There's an argument out there, even on this thread, that claims that one doesn't need CO detectors on boats with diesel engines. That's just plain wrong.
Yes it is, however most boats that have diesels also have propane stoves and those are far more likely to cause lethal CO.
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Old 26-02-2012, 11:01   #45
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Re: Carbon Monoxide (Lots of research, no solid answers)

The State of Wa requires any new boat sold put a sticker on the cabin entryway warning of CO risk. Any boat producing exhaust can have a lot of it go into the cabin when running down wind or idling. Still, it's pretty obvious from exhaust I would think, even without a sticker or monitor!
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