Buying an Electromaax alternator? I suggest not.

[bgallinger]

Last year I purchased an Electromaax alternator and the Mastervolt smart regulator. My experience with this product are as follows:

1) I approached Florida Diesel in Ft. Pierce to install the alternator and a new starter motor. They were pleased to install the starter motor, but refused to install the Electromaax alternator.

2) Whiticar Marine installed the alternator, but it ran intermittently.

3) After several phone calls to Electromaax, they suggested two things. Check each and every connection and call Land Sea Solutions of Ft. Lauderdale to check the work as they are familiar with Electromaax. I checked every connection, and found one terminal was slightly loose. After tightening that connection, the alternator ran perfectly. Land Sea Solutions arrived the next day and found the installation and wiring was done perfectly.

4) 80 engine hours later, the alternator failed.

5) The Electromaax alternator was removed and sent back to Electromaax.

6) The original 55amp alternator was re-installed and has run to spec since then.

7) Electromaax demanded $950 to repair the alternator.

8) Electromaax has never seen the wiring or installation and yet determined the alternator was wired incorrectly despite me engaging a firm they recommended to inspect the work.

9) I wish I had listened to Florida Diesel and never installed this alternator.

For further information on this product visit
Welcome To MarineHowTo.com Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

[SV THIRD DAY]

Sorry to hear about your ElectroMaax nightmare...the long list of horror stories keep piling up everything John Stevens touches. Next up...ElectroMaax is in violation of the Balmar serpentine conversion kit patent and John's approach of course is to say "I'm a Canadian company...try to sue me". But what John didn't realize is that the parent company of Balmar has more money than John has places to hide...this will be interesting to watch...

[wayne.b]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

Last year I purchased an Electromaax alternator and the Mastervolt smart regulator. My experience with this product are as follows:

1) I approached Florida Diesel in Ft. Pierce to install the alternator and a new starter motor. They were pleased to install the starter motor, but refused to install the Electromaax alternator.

2) Whiticar Marine installed the alternator, but it ran intermittently.

3) After several phone calls to Electromaax, they suggested two things. Check each and every connection and call Land Sea Solutions of Ft. Lauderdale to check the work as they are familiar with Electromaax. I checked every connection, and found one terminal was slightly loose. After tightening that connection, the alternator ran perfectly. Land Sea Solutions arrived the next day and found the installation and wiring was done perfectly.

4) 80 engine hours later, the alternator failed.

5) The Electromaax alternator was removed and sent back to Electromaax.

6) The original 55amp alternator was re-installed and has run to spec since then.

7) Electromaax demanded $950 to repair the alternator.

8) Electromaax has never seen the wiring or installation and yet determined the alternator was wired incorrectly despite me engaging a firm they recommended to inspect the work.

9) I wish I had listened to Florida Diesel and never installed this alternator.

For further information on this product visit
Welcome To MarineHowTo.com Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

===

There's a long running discussion on the Seven Seas forum that you might be interested in reading:

https://www.ssca.org/forum/viewtopic...3052&start=105

[bgallinger]

Thanks Wayne. I will take a look!

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

Last year I purchased an Electromaax alternator and the Mastervolt smart regulator. My experience with this product are as follows:

1) I approached Florida Diesel in Ft. Pierce to install the alternator and a new starter motor. They were pleased to install the starter motor, but refused to install the Electromaax alternator.

2) Whiticar Marine installed the alternator, but it ran intermittently.

3) After several phone calls to Electromaax, they suggested two things. Check each and every connection and call Land Sea Solutions of Ft. Lauderdale to check the work as they are familiar with Electromaax. I checked every connection, and found one terminal was slightly loose. After tightening that connection, the alternator ran perfectly. Land Sea Solutions arrived the next day and found the installation and wiring was done perfectly.

4) 80 engine hours later, the alternator failed.

5) The Electromaax alternator was removed and sent back to Electromaax.

6) The original 55amp alternator was re-installed and has run to spec since then.

7) Electromaax demanded $950 to repair the alternator.

8) Electromaax has never seen the wiring or installation and yet determined the alternator was wired incorrectly despite me engaging a firm they recommended to inspect the work.

9) I wish I had listened to Florida Diesel and never installed this alternator.

For further information on this product visit
Welcome To MarineHowTo.com Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Sorry to hear about that. It seems John is still making messes..

I do warn folks on my site about that, right in the first paragraph, and when I move to my new website that article will no longer feature Electromaax products. I also listed two alternatives who do offer great support.

This is my opening paragraph.. FWIW I offer no other warning in any of my other articles, don't need to......

"WARNING: This article includes equipment sold by Electromaax in Canada and I must preface this post with some cautions. Over the last few years I have received multiple complaints of poor customer service from Electromaax. I have personally received good service but I am an n=1. I simply can not ignore the complaints I have had, so I must preface this article with this caution.

There are other companies producing similar products, namely Balmar and Mark Grasser DC Solutions, both of whom have excellent customer support & considerably better track records for customer service. I am not saying don't buy from Electromaax, just letting you know a fair number of boaters have not been happy withe their customer service, so do your research."


.

[bgallinger]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Sorry to hear about that. It seems John is still making messes..

I do warn folks on my site about that, right in the first paragraph, and when I move to my new website that article will no longer feature Electromaax products. I also listed two alternatives who do offer great support.

This is my opening paragraph.. FWIW I offer no other warning in any of my other articles, don't need to......

"WARNING: This article includes equipment sold by Electromaax in Canada and I must preface this post with some cautions. Over the last few years I have received multiple complaints of poor customer service from Electromaax. I have personally received good service but I am an n=1. I simply can not ignore the complaints I have had, so I must preface this article with this caution.

There are other companies producing similar products, namely Balmar and Mark Grasser DC Solutions, both of whom have excellent customer support & considerably better track records for customer service. I am not saying don't buy from Electromaax, just letting you know a fair number of boaters have not been happy withe their customer service, so do your research."


.

Thanks for eliminating Electromaax products on your new website!
Your Marine How To articles are excellent.
Bruce

[aluijten]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

For further information on this product visit
Welcome To MarineHowTo.com Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Not sure if I want to visit this site. the following statement was taken from this site:

"They can do this based on alternator temp while still keeping the voltage limit exactly the same. For example the current output of a 100A alternator may be reduced to just 70A, to keep it below 230F, but the voltage limit still remains at 14.4V or where ever you set it at for your batteries.".

I'm not sure what is suggested here but if the alternator "decides" to lower the output current it can only do so by lowering the voltage as the battery "decides" the impedance of the charging circuit, not the alternator unless the alternator puts some additional resistance in the circuit, leading to even more rise of temperature.
So even if the limit is set/kept at 14.4, that does mean noting at that point as the actual voltage across the battery terminals will be lower. Volts still equals Resistance multiplied by Current for DC systems

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by aluijten

Not sure if I want to visit this site. the following statement was taken from this site:

"They can do this based on alternator temp while still keeping the voltage limit exactly the same. For example the current output of a 100A alternator may be reduced to just 70A, to keep it below 230F, but the voltage limit still remains at 14.4V or where ever you set it at for your batteries.".

I'm not sure what is suggested here but if the alternator "decides" to lower the output current it can only do so by lowering the voltage as the battery "decides" the impedance of the charging circuit, not the alternator unless the alternator puts some additional resistance in the circuit, leading to even more rise of temperature.
So even if the limit is set/kept at 14.4, that does mean noting at that point as the actual voltage across the battery terminals will be lower. Volts still equals Resistance multiplied by Current for DC systems

Field voltage is reduced if the alt heats up to the temp limit. This reduction in field voltage results in the maximum current output being less and allows the alternator to cool off. With less current output we have a slower voltage rise to the regulation limit voltage.

The target limiting voltage of the regulator remains the same it just means you have less current available and a slightly longer time to get up to the voltage regulation limiting point. This cut back in field voltage normally occurs during bulk or CC charging so we are not yet at the voltage regulators CV or limiting voltage when this field reduction occurs.

These regs also have the ability to reduce the CV/regulated voltage limit for battery temp compensation.

[aluijten]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Field voltage is reduced if the alt heats up to the temp limit. This reduction in field voltage results in the maximum current output being less and allows the alternator to cool off. With less current output we have a slower voltage rise to the regulation limit voltage.

The target limiting voltage of the regulator remains the same it just means you have less current available and a slightly longer time to get up to the voltage regulation limiting point. This cut back in field voltage normally occurs during bulk or CC charging so we are not yet at the voltage regulators CV or limiting voltage when this field reduction occurs.

These regs also have the ability to reduce the CV/regulated voltage limit for battery temp compensation.

Yes but what does that mean. In the end you will still offer less current to the batteries than they can handle, because of the alternator temperature, so recharge time goes up. By the time you hit the 14.4 threshold it is because your batteries won't accept the full alternator output anymore (at 14.4 Volt) otherwise the temp of the alternator would go up again. So smart charging of batteries using a normal alternator is not so smart after all.
Only when using LiFePo batteries you can push a lot of current into the batteries untill almost full, but that again poses a problem to the alternator as it will become too hot.

So the pre-set limit of the smart charger is more or less useless for the standard alternator as in many cases the bulk-charge current is limited to the alternator temperature and not the the 14.4 Volts at the battery-terminal. The change to absorption mode is simply achieve because of the voltage limiter. This limiter is present in basic regulators as well.

[a64pilot]

"Warning thread drift"


What you are in effect saying, and I have a tendency to agree, is that the dumb stock alternators maybe aren't as dumb as first thought, since smart ones to keep from burning up, sort of emulate them.

What I want to know is will a 200 amp alternator built on the same frame as a 100 amp alternator once the steady state temp limit is reached and maintained, is it making significantly more power than it's little, much cheaper brother, and if so why or how?
More efficient somehow, better cooling?

I suspicion a lot of us that bought these big high power alternators that have to be temp regulated and or power significantly reduced to prevent overheating, might have spent more than we should have?

I believe vast majority of people do not have a shunt to measure Alternator output and have always assumed they get rated power.


Seems for me, around 80 amps or so it what my 140 amp alternator will make continuously and stay within it's temp limit, now had I bought Marks Serpentine kit that drives the alternator at much higher speed, it might have made 140 amps continuously, but I got Balmar's Altmount kit which I think drives at or close to stock speeds.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by aluijten

Yes but what does that mean. In the end you will still offer less current to the batteries than they can handle, because of the alternator temperature, so recharge time goes up.

Yes recharge time goes up slightly but if it did not the alt would live a very short life. I replace a fair number of cooked factory alternators each season due to long bulk times and large lead acid banks.

Originally Posted by aluijten

By the time you hit the 14.4 threshold it is because your batteries won't accept the full alternator output anymore (at 14.4 Volt) otherwise the temp of the alternator would go up again. So smart charging of batteries using a normal alternator is not so smart after all.

Voltage is voltage and regardless of smart or dumb 14.4V is 14.4V (at the battery terminals) no matter the current & regulation source and the battery will only take what it can take at 14.4V and XX SOC.

Originally Posted by aluijten

Only when using LiFePo batteries you can push a lot of current into the batteries untill almost full, but that again poses a problem to the alternator as it will become too hot.

Even with large LA banks we can have bulk times that result in the need for reductions in current output to bring alt temp down. Once we hit the limit voltage (CV) the current declines and we usually don't need reductions in field beyond the first early portions of CV..

Originally Posted by aluijten

So the pre-set limit of the smart charger is more or less useless for the standard alternator as in many cases the bulk-charge current is limited to the alternator temperature and not the the 14.4 Volts at the battery-terminal. The change to absorption mode is simply achieve because of the voltage limiter. This limiter is present in basic regulators as well.

Basic internal regulators often use a thermistor which reduces the max regulation voltage based on internal alt temp and they rarely get to the target voltage, charging large banks, because of the design. The internal thermistor results in considerably longer times to the proper voltage limit.

I have done side by side testing in a hot-box of a stock thermistor gradient alt and an externally regulated version of the identical alternator. The externally regulated alt manages charging speed more efficiently and gets to a higher SOC significantly faster than a stock internal regulator using thermistor protection.

An external regulator protects the alternator & battery differently while still allowing it to get to a healthy absorption voltage or reducing the limit voltage based on battery temp. Many boats have banks of 600+ Ah, that to the alternator, seem like LiFePO4 in terms of duration & heat created in bulk. External regulators have many features stock regulators don't have and it is not necessarily just the charging performance that makes them a decent choice for many applications.

[aluijten]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

"
What you are in effect saying, and I have a tendency to agree, is that the dumb stock alternators maybe aren't as dumb as first thought, since smart ones to keep from burning up, sort of emulate them.

What I want to know is will a 200 amp alternator built on the same frame as a 100 amp alternator once the steady state temp limit is reached and maintained, is it making significantly more power than it's little, much cheaper brother, and if so why or how?
More efficient somehow, better cooling?

I would say the if the alternator looks the same and the weight is virtually the same chances are the 200A version will hit the temperature limit much faster unless the cooling fan is much bigger. The efficiency of the 200A may be a bit better, but no way you'll get double the power.
I'm guessing it's the rectifier diodes that are bigger in the 200A version and some change in the winding setup, but more to allow 200A in bursts then a sustained 200 Amps.

On my own boat I did notice the physical size of the alternator (115A) is much bigger then the previous one (previous engine) That one pushed only 65A. So I can believe the new one pushing out much more power. Following that ratio, a 200A Alternator would be quite big.

Compare the size of an inverting generator-alternator of 2 KW with a 200A engine alternator. The generator has an alternator generating a much higher voltage, thus limiting the currents. So if the alternator on a 2KW generator is bigger then a 200A Engine alternator, it makes you wonder...

[aluijten]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Basic internal regulators often use a thermistor which reduces the max regulation voltage based on internal alt temp and they rarely get to the target voltage, charging large banks, because of the design. The internal thermistor results in considerably longer times to the proper voltage limit.

I have done side by site testing in a hot-box of a stock thermistor gradient alt and an externally regulated version of the identical alternator. The externally regulated alt manages charging speed more efficiently and gets to a higher SOC significantly faster than a stock internal regulator using thermistor protection.

An external regulator protects the alternator & battery differently while still allowing it to get to a healthy absorption voltage or reducing the limit voltage based on battery temp. Many boats have banks of 600+ Ah, that to the alternator, seem like LiFePO4 in terms of duration & heat created in bulk. External regulators have many features stock regulators don't have and it is not necessarily just the charging performance that makes them a decent choice for many applications.

Still don't get it.
The only way that can be true is if your external regulator runs the alternator hotter then the stock version. That may be fine. I'm not saying it will run it too hot (whatever that is). But at the end of the day whatever regulator you come up with it can only adjust the field voltage to regulate power output. That has a direct effect on the temperature of the alternator. Even more, it could run the alternator at higher outputs at lower RPM, increasing the temperature even more.
So if your argument is that the smart-regulator will charge better because it keeps the alternator closer to the max-temp level, then yes that I can understand. I may be that out of the box regulators are set at more conservative levels.

So I wonder what the trade-off of these smart regulators is. I'm pretty sure my engine warranty is (partially) void once I start messing with the charging system outside their recommendations.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by aluijten

Still don't get it.
The only way that can be true is if your external regulator runs the alternator hotter then the stock version. That may be fine. I'm not saying it will run it too hot (whatever that is). But at the end of the day whatever regulator you come up with it can only adjust the field voltage to regulate power output. That has a direct effect on the temperature of the alternator. Even more, it could run the alternator at higher outputs at lower RPM, increasing the temperature even more.
So if your argument is that the smart-regulator will charge better because it keeps the alternator closer to the max-temp level, then yes that I can understand. I may be that out of the box regulators are set at more conservative levels.

So I wonder what the trade-off of these smart regulators is. I'm pretty sure my engine warranty is (partially) void once I start messing with the charging system outside their recommendations.

This is exactly what the Balmar regulators do. They find the max temp the alt can run at and adjust field voltage to not allow it to go above that point. They essentially move up and down in 5% increments of field voltage reduction. By doing it this way they can extract the maximum output of the alternator without pushing into a dangerous temp range.

A typical stock regulator, such as those found in the Hitachi alternators found on most Yanmars, begins reducing the maximum regulation voltage at just 20C or 69F by -.01V per degree rise in alternator temp.

Even with just a 3A output, when the alt should be running pretty cool, in a 145F engine room, the reduction in the limiting voltage is -.43V or less than 14.0V to the bank. This voltage limit reduction is based on ambient alt temp not what temp the alt can handle.

The thermistor is used because these are essentially car alternators designed to not overcharge car batteries in hot engine spaces while sitting in traffic. They assume the alt is near the battery thus these reductions in voltage are arguably serving the battery pretty well. Despite the batteries not needing voltage reductions or the alt not needing current output reductions to cool, they still happen based on engine room and ambient alt temp. With an external regulator there is no reduction in field voltage unless the alt starts to exceed the set point temp limit. At anything below the temp limit the reg allows the full field potential...

[a64pilot]

I believe you have most of it, a stock alternator is set to run between I bet 13.8 and 14.2 V regardless of bank voltage or temp. That's automotive numbers, but I bet its the same on a stock alternator. They are apparently temperature protected, may well be conservative as the primary driving factor here is alternator life and not how fast your bank charges.

An external reg allows for multi stage charging, first CC up to the limit of the alternator and then constant voltage at absorption voltage and then finally float at a lower voltage number.
It should as a min have both alternator temp sensing to protect the alternator as if it doesn't my 660AH AGM bank would likely cook one as a Life-Po bank would. But it needs also a battery temperature sensor to adjust charge voltage in the absorption and float stage, the hotter the bank, the lower the voltage.

And finally some have profiles where you can turn the output of the alternator down to keep heat output acceptable, I believe some call it "belt manager" with the sales pitch being to keep belt dust down, but the advent of serpentine belt conversions has seemingly brought up that at the speeds we run them at, they can't make rated output without having the power turned down or they will overheat.

Which is why I'm wondering aloud if it doesn't make more financial sense to buy a 100 amp alternator and let it run at full output, that it does to spend the $$ to buy a 200 and then turn it down to a lower output to keep the heat down?


On edit, I didn't read Maine Sails post until after I posted, I was unaware the Balmar would cut back so little, mine just drops to float voltage when temp limit is reached.
But Mark says something better is coming