Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-02-2011, 21:21   #31
Registered User
 
Bloodhound's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lake Texoma, Oklahoma
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 277
High quality safety gear is always expensive and low quality gear you don't want. You should also have safety gear on which you hang your life RE-certified annually. Fatal accidents only happen once.
__________________

__________________
Bloodhound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2011, 21:57   #32
Registered User
 
North26West80's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Boat: Downeaster 38 - Ocean Cloud
Posts: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodhound View Post
High quality safety gear is always expensive and low quality gear you don't want. You should also have safety gear on which you hang your life RE-certified annually. Fatal accidents only happen once.
Recertified? Huhhh?
__________________

__________________
North26West80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2011, 22:05   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by North26West80 View Post
Recertified? Huhhh?
Must work for OSHA.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2011, 22:48   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 16
Harness & tether

Interesting thread so far. I wonder if there is a psychological reason to pricing on these items. I see the US dollars being about $100... strange, just exactly what they are here in NZ. Apart from anything else, maybe this is where the merchants consider what the market will bear.

Next item is materials and workmanship. I make my own harnesses (after doing a number of years of rock climbing in the old days), sew by hand with a sewing awl and really stout nylon thread (almost string), and am utterly happy with the strength of the set up. I also use three-strand line and eye splice it. Again, I take my time and go a bit farther than I really need to, but this is nice to remember when it's F9 at 0200. Litigation must always be considered, but (for me anyway) cruising is something about self reliance. Lawyers are the 'ex post facto', where it should be the aim to come out of a fall or emergency catch so there is no 'post facto'.

I wonder if we are getting blinded by science in the webbing/rope/line comparison. When clipped on the well thought out jackstay no one is going to go very far (unless possibly straight forward or aft along it). There's no distance to build up much of a truly punishing force, so to a certain extent the material is immaterial. One has to have a reasonably short tether or else the carabiner at the end is out of reach when the tether is at full extension; ie- no great time for acceleration to act on it. A bad fall will still hurt but it is unlikely to generate the kind of force a ten or twenty meter fall and sudden stop would.

I've been caught by my harness once or twice, but it is true I've never been propelled by solid greenwater. This may be a different ball game, especially along the length of the jackstay.

Cheers - G
__________________
CGB GAREY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 06:22   #35
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Must work for OSHA.
As I recall, unless the regulation has changed in the past few months, OSHA only requires that gear be inspected daily by the user and that fall protection systems be reviewed by "a competent person", without any firm detail as to what that might mean.

Interesting reading, if you have not read the OSHA fall protection standard.
Fall protection systems criteria and practices. - 1926.502

I've been climbing for many years, and I promise you annual inspection is close to pointless. Damage happens in the blink of an eye. A single fall over a sharp edge.

I didn't suggest poor quality. I will forward to the group that climbers typically take multiple life-or-death falls every day they practice, and so the equipment is very well tested in the field and certified in the lab.

UIAA - Safety Standards

True, the applications are different, but most of the applicable equipment and concepts originated in mountaineering, including the harnesses, wire gate carabiners, strength ratings, and webbing. None of this was invented for sailing, only adapted. I grant that some adaptations are very important. However, I also don't agree that all of them (spin shackles) were improvements.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 08:21   #36
Registered User
 
Bloodhound's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lake Texoma, Oklahoma
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by North26West80 View Post
Recertified? Huhhh?
Recertified is the wrong word. But the owner should regularly check over the equipment thoroughly and if there are frays or breaks, do not try to repair it - just throw it away, yup all that lovely money into the bin but that's better than the wearer into a box. Do I work for OSHA? Hell no! But as a chemical engineer I see lots of riggers high in the air always tied off in a harness. And if any harness has frays it's seen better days and is immediately cut up and discarded. If you'd trust your harness to keep you suspended far above the ground, wear it but don't be a Darwin Award candidate by making your own to save a few dollars (most of us are too inexperienced for that) or by wearing a worn one. That's the real message.
__________________
Bloodhound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 08:42   #37
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
has anyone ever had a tether fail? Let me re state any one alive who has survived a failed tether.
I really like the idea of a fixed hand hold or 2 that can be reached from the water. Try getting aboard a boat that doesn't have a easy to grab ladder and you'll see why. Pretty easy to add a few steps on the transom permanently fixed.
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 09:16   #38
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,330
A good read on harnesses and tethers. Safety at Sea study.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets...ea+Studies.pdf

I'm not sure their test methodology was proper. They did not measure or control the forces involved, did not comply with well proven UIAA methods, and generally performed mediocre science in several areas, but they did a lot of work and it is interesting none the less. The lack of QC in the tethers, specifically, was distressing. I would have liked to see them look at jacklines, as the forces on the jacklines are at least 4x greater than any other part of the system. If they had dropped the dummy at the center of a jackline they would have counted jackline failures and NO harness of tether failures. I posted the math earlier and you are welcome to check it.

Comments aside, well worth reading. A good effort.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 09:35   #39
Mooderator
 
capngeo's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,211
Images: 12
Send a message via Yahoo to capngeo Send a message via Skype™ to capngeo
I've gone to the end of a tether, and was damned glad it was sturdy! That said, a piece of rope with a bowline at each end would have accomplished the same net results, save a few bruises.

At the risk of further thread drift, I must comment...... $500+/hour and 33+% of awards? YUP I do believe lawyers are a BIG problem in today's society (well the greedy ones anyhow). In the fireservice if a rope is used ONCE as a lifesafety device it is retired... ONCE! When I asked why, I was told tort liability..... 600' of $3/ft rope.... ONCE!
__________________
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
capngeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 09:50   #40
Registered User
 
Ziggy's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: U.S., Northeast
Boat: Contessa 32
Posts: 1,421
Images: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by b-rad View Post
When your on the pointy end drinking green water your awfully glad spent 200$ on a good tether
I sail with a guy whose tether is a 6 feet of 3 strand and two climbing carbinners, not sure its isaf legal but he hasnt fallen off the boat yet.
Part of the reason safety equipment prices are what they are has nothing to do with the manufacturing cost. It is the inelastic relationship between price and demand. In general, I think sailors ($500/month crowd aside) have more money than, say, rock climbers and are more willing to spend it. Most sailors are unqualified to evaluate the effectiveness of a tether just by looking at it, and the only thing they can use to base their decisions on is the old adage that "you get what you pay for" (i.e., if it's more expensive it must be safer/better.) This is compounded by the relative lack of standards and certifications for sailing gear, as compared with rock climbing gear. If I am shopping for a climbing harness, I can have some level of confidence that it will not fail if it meets the UIAA minimum standards.

If all tethers and jacklines conformed to a common, well though out standard and certification requirements, they would become more of a commodity item, subject to more downward price pressures.
__________________
... He knows the chart is not the sea.
-- Philip Booth, Chart 1203
Ziggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 11:05   #41
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Wink This use to be part of my job........ b 4 I retired ;o

Quote:
Originally Posted by capngeo View Post
I've gone to the end of a tether, and was damned glad it was sturdy! That said, a piece of rope with a bowline at each end would have accomplished the same net results, save a few bruises.

At the risk of further thread drift, I must comment...... $500+/hour and 33+% of awards? YUP I do believe lawyers are a BIG problem in today's society (well the greedy ones anyhow). In the fireservice if a rope is used ONCE as a lifesafety device it is retired... ONCE! When I asked why, I was told tort liability..... 600' of $3/ft rope.... ONCE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHA
1926.502(d)(19)

Personal fall arrest systems and components subjected to impact loading shall be immediately removed from service and shall not be used again for employee protection until inspected and determined by a competent person to be undamaged and suitable for reuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHA
1926.502(d)(21)

Personal fall arrest systems shall be inspected prior to each use for wear, damage and other deterioration, and defective components shall be removed from service.
And here ya go.......... the full wrap... And note that this is industrial grade equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSHA
FALL PROTECTION
INFORMATION

Fall Protection Categories

All fall protection products fit into four functional categories. 1. Fall Arrest; 2. Positioning; 3. Suspension; 4. Retrieval.

Fall Arrest
A fall arrest system is required if any risk exists that a worker may fall from an elevated position, as a general rule, the fall arrest system should be used anytime a working height of six feet or more is reached. Working height is the distance from the walking/working surface to a grade or lower level. A fall arrest system will only come into service should a fall occur. A full-body harness with a shock-absorbing lanyard or a retractable lifeline is the only product recommended. A full-body harness distributes the forces throughout the body, and the shock-absorbing lanyard decreases the total fall arresting forces.

Positioning
This system holds the worker in place while keeping his/her hands free to work. Whenever the worker leans back, the system is activated. However, the personal positioning system is not specifically designed for fall arrest purposes.

Suspension
This equipment lowers and supports the worker while allowing a hands-free work environment, and is widely used in window washing and painting industries. This suspension system components are not designed to arrest a free fall, a backup fall arrest system should be used in conjunction with the suspension system.

Retrieval
Preplanning for retrieval in the event of a fall should be taken into consideration when developing a proactive fall management program.

Fall Protection Systems

Listed below are different types of fall safety equipment and their recommended usage.

Class 1 Body belts (single or double D-ring) are designed to restrain a person in a hazardous work position and to reduce the possibility of falls. They should not be used when fall potential exists; positioning only.
Class 2 Chest harnesses are used when there are only limited fall hazards (no vertical free fall hazard), or for retrieving persons such as removal of persons from a tank or a bin.
Class 3 Full body harnesses are designed to arrest the most severe free falls.
Class 4 Suspension belts are independent work supports used to suspend a worker, such as boatswain's chairs or raising or lowering harnesses.
Rope Lanyard Offers some elastic properties for all arrest; used for restraint purpose.
Web Lanyard Ideal for restraint purposes where fall hazards are less than 2 feet.
Cable Positioning
Lanyards Designed for corrosive or excess heat environments and must be used in conjunction with shock absorbing devices.
Shock Absorbers When used, the fall arresting force will be greatly reduced if a fall occurs.
Rope Grabs A deceleration device which travels on a lifeline, used to safely ascend or descend ladders or sloped surfaces and automatically, by friction, engages the lifeline and locks so as to arrest the fall of an employee.
Retractable Lifeline Systems Gives fall protection and mobility to the user when working at height or in areas where there is a danger of falling.
Safety Nets Can be used to lesson the fall exposure when working where temporary floors and scaffolds are not used and the fall distance exceeds 25 feet.
Rail Systems When climbing a ladder, rail systems can be used on any fixed ladder as well as curved surfaces as a reliable method of fall prevention.
Effective January 1, 1998, body belts are not acceptable as part of a personal fall arrest system. (Note: the use of a body belt in a positioning device system is acceptable and is regulated under paragraph (e) of 29 CFR 1926.502). An employee who uses a body belt as a personal fall arrest system is exposed to hazards such as falling out of the belt, serious internal injuries, and technical asphyxiation through prolonged suspension.

Inspection and Maintenance

To maintain their service life and high performance, all belts and harnesses should be inspected frequently. Visual inspection before each use should become routine, and also a routine inspection by a competent person. If any of the conditions listed below are found the equipment should be replaced before being used.

Harness Inspection
1. Belts and Rings: For harness inspections begin at one end, hold the body side of the belt toward you, grasping the belt with your hands six to eight inches apart. Bend the belt in an inverted "U." Watch for frayed edges, broken fibers, pulled stitches, cuts or chemical damage. Check D-rings and D-ring metal wear pads for distortion, cracks, breaks, and rough or sharp edges. The D-ring bar should be at a 90 degree angle with the long axis of the belt and should pivot freely.

Attachments of buckles and D-rings should be given special attention. Note any unusual wear, frayed or cut fibers, or distortion of the buckles. Rivets should be tight and unremovable with fingers. Body side rivet base and outside rivets should be flat against the material. Bent rivets will fail under stress.

Inspect frayed or broken strands. Broken webbing strands generally appear as tufts on the webbing surface. Any broken, cut or burnt stitches will be readily seen.

2. Tongue Buckle: Buckle tongues should be free of distortion in shape and motion. They should overlap the buckle frame and move freely back and forth in their socket. Rollers should turn freely on the frame. Check for distortion or sharp edges.

3. Friction Buckle: Inspect the buckle for distortion. The outer bar or center bars must be straight. Pay special attention to corners and attachment points of the center bar.

Lanyard Inspection

When inspecting lanyards, begin at one end and work to the opposite end. Slowly rotate the lanyard so that the entire circumference is checked. Spliced ends require particular attention. Hardware should be examined under procedures detailed below.

Hardware
Snaps: Inspect closely for hook and eye distortion, cracks, corrosion, or pitted surfaces. The keeper or latch should seat into the nose without binding and should not be distorted or obstructed. The keeper spring should exert sufficient force to firmly close the keeper. Keeper rocks must provide the keeper from opening when the keeper closes.

Thimbles: The thimble (protective plastic sleeve) must be firmly seated in the eye of the splice, and the splice should have no loose or cut strands. The edges of the thimble should be free of sharp edges, distortion, or cracks.

Lanyards
Steel Lanyards: While rotating a steel lanyard, watch for cuts, frayed areas, or unusual wear patterns on the wire. The use of steel lanyards for fall protection without a shock-absorbing device is not recommended.

Web Lanyard: While bending webbing over a piece of pipe, observe each side of the webbed lanyard. This will reveal any cuts or breaks. Due to the limited elasticity of the web lanyard, fall protection without the use of a shock absorber is not recommended.

Rope Lanyard: Rotation of the rope lanyard while inspecting from end to end will bring to light any fuzzy, worn, broken or cut fibers. Weakened areas from extreme loads will appear as a noticeable change in original diameter. The rope diameter should be uniform throughout, following a short break-in period. When a rope lanyard is used for fall protection, a shock-absorbing system should be included.

Shock-Absorbing Packs
The outer portion of the shock-absorbing pack should be examined for burn holes and tears. Stitching on areas where the pack is sewn to the D-ring, belt or lanyard should be examined for loose strands, rips and deterioration.

Visual Indication of Damage to
Webbing and Rope Lanyards

Heat
In excessive heat, nylon becomes brittle and has a shriveled brownish appearance. Fibers will break when flexed and should not be used above 180 degrees Fahrenheit.

Chemical
Change in color usually appears as a brownish smear or smudge. Transverse cracks appear when belt is bent over tight. This causes a loss of elasticity in the belt.

Ultraviolet Rays
Do not store webbing and rope lanyards in direct sunlight, because ultraviolet rays can reduce the strength of some material.

Molten Metal or Flame
Webbing and rope strands may be fused together by molten metal or flame. Watch for hard, shiny spots or a hard and brittle feel. Webbing will not support combustion, nylon will.

Paint and Solvents
Paint will penetrate and dry, restricting movements of fibers. Drying agents and solvents in some paints will appear as chemical damage.

Cleaning of Equipment

Basic care for fall protection safety equipment will prolong and endure the life of the equipment and contribute toward the performance of its vital safety function. Proper storage and maintenance after use is as important as cleaning the equipment of dirt, corrosives or contaminants. The storage area should be clean, dry and free of exposure to fumes or corrosive elements.

Nylon and Polyester
Wipe off all surface dirt with a sponge dampened in plain water. Squeeze the sponge dry. Dip the sponge in a mild solution of water and commercial soap or detergent. Work up a thick lather with a vigorous back and forth motion. Then wipe the belt dry with a clean cloth. Hang freely to dry but away from excessive heat.

Drying
Harness, belts and other equipment should be dried thoroughly without exposure to heat, steam or long periods of sunlight.

The information contained within this document was obtained partially from The St. Paul-Tie or Die Fall Protection Program manual.
Fall Protection
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 11:29   #42
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post

I didn't suggest poor quality. I will forward to the group that climbers typically take multiple life-or-death falls every day they practice, and so the equipment is very well tested in the field and certified in the lab.

UIAA - Safety Standards

True, the applications are different, but most of the applicable equipment and concepts originated in mountaineering, including the harnesses, wire gate carabiners, strength ratings, and webbing. None of this was invented for sailing, only adapted. I grant that some adaptations are very important. However, I also don't agree that all of them (spin shackles) were improvements.
Unfortunately One has to pay to see the standard sheets. BS EN 12277:2007 - Mountaineering equipment. Harnesses. Safety requirements and test methods
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 11:51   #43
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Lawyers and doctors (and associated costs) are only an issue because so many of us insist on the false security of being insured from everything. Then on the other hand, there is a good reason why sailors claim that the best way to save a drowning lawyer is by lifting our foot from his head.

Many would be cruisers think that a fully insured, brand new boat is SAFER than than that old and weathered boat whose skipper often enough neither can nor wants to buy the insurance.

It is not always that they meet again after the the crossing - often because the fully insured brand new boat is still tied to the marina with her owner grinding it to buy a better insurance. Sometimes because the false security prove, well, false. All bases covered. Zero cruising done.

Rather than the 100 USD 'expensive' tethers just buy the top specs units at 50, or just tie yourself to the boat with a bowline AND GO SAILING.

barnie
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 12:06   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 128
This is an interesting topic to me.

I am in the construction industry and have been considering using traditional OSHA fall protection as a substitute for the marine grade (very expensive) harness and tethers.

I have personally used the OSHA approved harness when working at elevation and they work well. They are a bit more complicated than marine gear, but I think they would work just as well.

Here is a relatively inexpensive system from Northern Tool: OSHA Harnesses and Tethers

Does anyone have any experience with these?
__________________
____________________________
~~~~_/)~~~~
http://www.datsariot.com
Coolruns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 12:17   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolruns View Post
This is an interesting topic to me.

I am in the construction industry and have been considering using traditional OSHA fall protection as a substitute for the marine grade (very expensive) harness and tethers.

I have personally used the OSHA approved harness when working at elevation and they work well. They are a bit more complicated than marine gear, but I think they would work just as well.

Here is a relatively inexpensive system from Northern Tool: OSHA Harnesses and Tethers

Does anyone have any experience with these?
The problem with industrial grades is that they are uncomfortable. I wore one daily while doing inspections and it wore holes in my coveralls.

Also you'll want one with the D-ring in the front. You don't want to be dragged through the water on your back.

Personally, if your going to buy, I'd go with a climbers harness. They do make a full suit type but they are $300 - $400. But a chest harness is good enough for on deck. Mine's built into my life jacket and that's good enough for me!!!!
__________________

__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale: Wichard Tethers DCGSAILING Classifieds Archive 5 03-02-2011 08:27
Where to Get Short Tethers? S&S Health, Safety & Related Gear 24 26-08-2009 22:25
For Sale: Offshore Inflatable PFDs, Tethers, and Strobes dworkman Classifieds Archive 1 12-08-2009 06:26
Jacklines and Tethers captain465 Health, Safety & Related Gear 2 01-07-2009 13:52
piddle pads/life jackets/tethers nalani Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 3 25-04-2008 10:10



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.