Which life raft and where to Stowe?

[laika]

Originally Posted by Allanlowery

Wow, lots of great advice on this thread!
Pelagic, thanks for the picture!
Looks like you've got a really nice boat too!
I have thought about a Life Boat, that last, and doesn't have to be re packed.
I don't know if it would be the easiest to get into and survive on in say heavy seas or not?




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I really want a portland pudgy! But stowing a 128lb hard tender on the foredeck of a 27' cutter doesn't seem practical

if I had a much larger boat, the pudgy certainly has a lot going for it. It doubles as a great little tender (sail/row/motor), so you use it everyday and know it well; no repacks; it can be setup to deploy off the foredeck by unclipping pelican hooks; you have a tough little boat that is virtually unsinkable vs a couple layers of fabric; you can be active in your own rescue instead of just bobbing around waiting.

I imagine being able to raise a sail and actually do something about your situation would be a major boost to morale.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by laika

I really want a portland pudgy! But stowing a 128lb hard tender on the foredeck of a 27' cutter doesn't seem practical

if I had a much larger boat, the pudgy certainly has a lot going for it. It doubles as a great little tender (sail/row/motor), so you use it everyday and know it well; no repacks; it can be setup to deploy off the foredeck by unclipping pelican hooks; you have a tough little boat that is virtually unsinkable vs a couple layers of fabric; you can be active in your own rescue instead of just bobbing around waiting.

I imagine being able to raise a sail and actually do something about your situation would be a major boost to morale.

Every boat is a compromise.

When I think of tenders on deck, I consider who will need to take it off the deck to use it. I also think that the weakest adult on the boat should be able to do this. Why? If for some reason the husband (usually the stronger in upper body strength) is incapacitated or injured or overboard etc. Then the task of getting the tender over the side (if kept on deck) will fall to the other crew (e.g. wife) who may not have the strength to lift a big heavy or cumbersome dinghy (inflatable, RIB, hard, etc.).

The Portland Pudgy weighs 128 pounds. Some of the RIBs are 350+ pounds (e.g. the smallest of the RIB mentioned above in link is 353 pounds empty).

The average woman may be 128 pounds. Expecting her (alone) to lift (safely, without injury) a dinghy that weighs 128 pounds (empty) does not seem like a best possible solution to me.

For this reason, I find the lighter weight of the Porta-Bote (8 footer hull weighs 68 pounds) and the PT11 (nesting dinghy, with each half weighing just 45 pounds, total of 95 pounds for the 11 foot dinghy), attractive.

Of course there will be boats with davits and dinghies hanging on the davits and others who use electric winches (or manual winches) and halyards (or more people) to do the lifting.

I fully expect that someone here will see this differently.

But as I see it:
On a smaller boat (without davits) I would seriously consider the weight of the dinghy and ability of the weakest of the crew to handle the dinghy on deck and to launch it to be very important.

[laika]

The compromises can be devastating! I really wanted some kind of sailing dinghy to accompany my deflatable, but had to settle on an inflatable windsurfer instead. It's a tough life!!

Regarding heavy tenders on foredecks, if you rig in pelican hooks to the foreward lifeline terminations, you can quickly and easily unclip the lifelines and simply slide the tender over the side in an emergency. That's what the pudgy site recommends.

[ASTBoone]

Valise, stored below deck or in a controlled environment when not underway. Bring it to the cockpit and place it on a shelf next to your grab bag or secure it to the bulkhead with a quick release fastener or knot when underway.
Here's why I don't care for canister-ed life rafts.
They sit in the sun all day. As we know, confined spaces can get very hot while in the sun. Even an attic in a house as big as it is gets hot enough to destroy your most valuable possessions if stored there over time. Life rafts are made from materials that are not made for hot temperatures and will deteriorate over a period of time as well.
Now add saltwater to this heat and you can literally cook your life raft in a near boil climate.
The three worst things for a stored life raft are Heat, Moisture, and Critters rather being a rodent or insects. By placing a life raft stored in a confined space on a hot deck, you are literally zapping the life from the life-raft.
The other issue with canister-ed life rafts is accessibility. How easy is it to get to while underway and being tossed around in an angry sea. You will need to get to the life raft, open the canister, pull the life raft out of the canister and toss it overboard. My thoughts are this, you go get the life raft out of the canister, and I'll toss my valised life raft out next to the cabin and board it. I bet I will be in the life raft before you can even get to the canister! Then once you get to the canister, you are doing basically the same thing as me; throwing the life raft over board.
Your other option is to wait until the boat area where the canister is located sinks at least 14 feet before the hydrostatic release unit works. Then you have to wait until the inflation / painter lanyard fully deploys before the life raft inflates. Sorry, but there's just too many "ifs" in that scenario. A bird in hand is much better than hoping for chance.
Weight an issue? The life raft that you have to fight out of the canister is going to be just as heavy as the one you have in your cabin. Valise life raft weights have come way down over the past ten years and the sizes are not much larger than a parachute. Winslow carries a six person that weighs 36 lbs. and it has a inflated canopy and insulated floor.

For those who say a life raft is over kill in the Gulf or Caribbean waters I have news for you. Your body temperature is 98.6 degrees. Once your temperature drops just 3 degrees (95 degrees F), you are in the first stage of hypothermia. Symptoms include feeling cold, shivering, drowsiness, slurred speech, and disorientation. Not a good way to start your stay in the water. Now once it drops 4 more degrees (91F) shivering diminishes, decreased level of consciousness, slower rate of respiration, and decreased heart rate.
If the water temperature is say 75 degrees, then at some point, your body temperature will match that water temperature. Yes, you will be long gone by then but it's important to know that once the shivering stops (stage 2), you will no longer be able to reheat yourself. Your temperature can only go down from here at twenty-five times faster than it would standing in ambient air.
I would suggest reading "Not Without Hope" Written by Nick Schyuler. Nick was one of the individuals who's boat capsized off of Clearwater FL. a few years back. (NFL football players who perished). Nick describes the events that took place as each of his friends died, one after the other from hypothermia.
I have flown several years as a USCG aircrew member and I was the guy who searched for you. If you do not have enhanced signals or a larger target, such as a life raft, there's a good chance that you will not be found. Even in heavy boat traffic areas such as Clearwater FL.
Don't rely on chance when it comes to your life!

[hellosailor]

If it isn't complicated enough...also consider the hazmat shipping ($150 round trip) surcharges, if you have to send it out for repack. West Marine is supposed to have local store pickup and return service for at least one brand, which may eliminate that. At least find out where you'd have to send the raft, and how often, to get proper repacks done. Some offer much longer repack periods than others, some void their warranty if you don't have all repacks done on schedule.

[Stu Jackson]

34 replies so far and no one has asked:

Stowe?

Vermont

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by ASTBoone

Valise, stored below deck or in a controlled environment when not underway. Bring it to the cockpit and place it on a shelf next to your grab bag or secure it to the bulkhead with a quick release fastener or knot when underway.
Here's why I don't care for canister-ed life rafts.
They sit in the sun all day. As we know, confined spaces can get very hot while in the sun. Even an attic in a house as big as it is gets hot enough to destroy your most valuable possessions if stored there over time. Life rafts are made from materials that are not made for hot temperatures and will deteriorate over a period of time as well.
Now add saltwater to this heat and you can literally cook your life raft in a near boil climate.
The three worst things for a stored life raft are Heat, Moisture, and Critters rather being a rodent or insects. By placing a life raft stored in a confined space on a hot deck, you are literally zapping the life from the life-raft.
The other issue with canister-ed life rafts is accessibility. How easy is it to get to while underway and being tossed around in an angry sea. You will need to get to the life raft, open the canister, pull the life raft out of the canister and toss it overboard. My thoughts are this, you go get the life raft out of the canister, and I'll toss my valised life raft out next to the cabin and board it. I bet I will be in the life raft before you can even get to the canister! Then once you get to the canister, you are doing basically the same thing as me; throwing the life raft over board.
Your other option is to wait until the boat area where the canister is located sinks at least 14 feet before the hydrostatic release unit works. Then you have to wait until the inflation / painter lanyard fully deploys before the life raft inflates. Sorry, but there's just too many "ifs" in that scenario. A bird in hand is much better than hoping for chance.
Weight an issue? The life raft that you have to fight out of the canister is going to be just as heavy as the one you have in your cabin. Valise life raft weights have come way down over the past ten years and the sizes are not much larger than a parachute. Winslow carries a six person that weighs 36 lbs. and it has a inflated canopy and insulated floor.

For those who say a life raft is over kill in the Gulf or Caribbean waters I have news for you. Your body temperature is 98.6 degrees. Once your temperature drops just 3 degrees (95 degrees F), you are in the first stage of hypothermia. Symptoms include feeling cold, shivering, drowsiness, slurred speech, and disorientation. Not a good way to start your stay in the water. Now once it drops 4 more degrees (91F) shivering diminishes, decreased level of consciousness, slower rate of respiration, and decreased heart rate.
If the water temperature is say 75 degrees, then at some point, your body temperature will match that water temperature. Yes, you will be long gone by then but it's important to know that once the shivering stops (stage 2), you will no longer be able to reheat yourself. Your temperature can only go down from here at twenty-five times faster than it would standing in ambient air.
I would suggest reading "Not Without Hope" Written by Nick Schyuler. Nick was one of the individuals who's boat capsized off of Clearwater FL. a few years back. (NFL football players who perished). Nick describes the events that took place as each of his friends died, one after the other from hypothermia.
I have flown several years as a USCG aircrew member and I was the guy who searched for you. If you do not have enhanced signals or a larger target, such as a life raft, there's a good chance that you will not be found. Even in heavy boat traffic areas such as Clearwater FL.
Don't rely on chance when it comes to your life!

Your comments about heat affects being stored on deck are probably quite valid, maybe why they are meant to be serviced every year. But your other comments about canisters done seem to be correct. For a start, you don't 'unpack' a life raft in a canister. You throw the whole thing over board and it comes out of the canister it self. And as for getting to it quickly, well, that really depends on where it's located. I really can't see how going down stairs to get a life raft and then carrying it upstairs and throwing it over board can be quicker in any circumstances. My four man I keep during the winter down stairs and it's quite a task lifting it.

[DumnMad]

The only time I gave our liferaft a second thought; the seas were too rough, the water too cold and I was too old. I decided I would prefer to die inside the cozy boat than cold, wet and exhausted while trying to deploy and get into the liferaft.
Also decided having the battery bank in good shape and adequate bilge pump capacity might be more important than the liferaft.

Two cruising couples in our Nelson neighborhood really needed to get off their boats quickly, both because of fire, and in both cases they managed very well with the dinghy.
Fires are more likely to occur in calm weather so dingies work well for fire but you do need the grab bag.

[ASTBoone]

Rustic charm, I stand corrected. Yes, you only have to throw the canister over, but you do have to release it from the HRU and cradle, which for many, may be just as difficult.
If you secure the life raft in the cockpit when you get underway, you do not have to run up and down any stairs. I wouldn't advise anyone to stow the life raft or grab bag below deck while underway.
It would only take me 10 seconds or less to grab the valised life raft and have it over the side. How long is it going to take you to harness in, make your way to the canister and release it in moderate to severe seas? Then what does that do for crew coordination? Are they supposed to follow you out to the canister so they can board the life raft too?

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by ASTBoone

For those who say a life raft is over kill in the Gulf or Caribbean waters I have news for you. Your body temperature is 98.6 degrees. Once your temperature drops just 3 degrees (95 degrees F), you are in the first stage of hypothermia. Symptoms include feeling cold, shivering, drowsiness, slurred speech, and disorientation. Not a good way to start your stay in the water. Now once it drops 4 more degrees (91F) shivering diminishes, decreased level of consciousness, slower rate of respiration, and decreased heart rate.
If the water temperature is say 75 degrees, then at some point, your body temperature will match that water temperature. Yes, you will be long gone by then but it's important to know that once the shivering stops (stage 2), you will no longer be able to reheat yourself. Your temperature can only go down from here at twenty-five times faster than it would standing in ambient air.
I would suggest reading "Not Without Hope" Written by Nick Schyuler. Nick was one of the individuals who's boat capsized off of Clearwater FL. a few years back. (NFL football players who perished). Nick describes the events that took place as each of his friends died, one after the other from hypothermia.
I have flown several years as a USCG aircrew member and I was the guy who searched for you. If you do not have enhanced signals or a larger target, such as a life raft, there's a good chance that you will not be found. Even in heavy boat traffic areas such as Clearwater FL.
Don't rely on chance when it comes to your life!

Have to agree with you about hypothermia being a killer even in so called tropical waters. I work in the North Sea where we have to wear 3 layers of clothing under our insulated drysuits flying by helicopter to and from the rigs. Survival time if we ditch without this is a scary 5 minutes (10 in summer). With the big yellow babbygro it's an hour if you are in the water. Get into the life raft and survival time is days. This is the reason why we have 2 Thermal Protection Garments in our grab bag which are basically big orange, silver foil lined body suits. Even in warm waters (like the Adriatic right now at 26ºC) you could be hypothermic in a short time without them.

Not sure about the arguments against the canister life raft though. Every single one I have seen has a quick release strop that would take a 5 year old seconds to release and assuming the canister is mounted on the rails would activate and launch the raft instantly. No lifting involved or throwing over the side.
Yes the hydrostatic release is delayed by the time it takes the unit to get sufficiently underwater but one would hope you'd never need that.

A quick check online and a 6man ISO9650 offshore life raft in a valise is around 32kg with the canister version 39kg. Assuming the bulk of the extra weight is the canister which is negated by the fact it is mounted ready to launch the life raft themselves are identical. And I don't know about you but hauling 32kg (70lbs) out of a cockpit locker then throwing it over the guardrails ain't going to be easy even in calm conditions. As way of comparison 32kg is the max baggage weight on an airline and gets you the fetching orange "heavy" tag on your suitcase.
I accept there is a risk that heat and humidity could damage a canister life raft but that same heat and humidity exist in the cockpit locker where my current valise life raft sits, yes it is not direct sunshine but it still gets hot in there when it is 37ºC outside.

I'm still in the canister mounted on the rails camp, if for no other reason than it frees up some space in my cockpit locker I can use for other stuff

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Have to agree with you about hypothermia being a killer even in so called tropical waters. I work in the North Sea where we have to wear 3 layers of clothing under our insulated drysuits flying by helicopter to and from the rigs. Survival time if we ditch without this is a scary 5 minutes (10 in summer). With the big yellow babbygro it's an hour if you are in the water. Get into the life raft and survival time is days. This is the reason why we have 2 Thermal Protection Garments in our grab bag which are basically big orange, silver foil lined body suits. Even in warm waters (like the Adriatic right now at 26ºC) you could be hypothermic in a short time without them.

Not sure about the arguments against the canister life raft though. Every single one I have seen has a quick release strop that would take a 5 year old seconds to release and assuming the canister is mounted on the rails would activate and launch the raft instantly. No lifting involved or throwing over the side.
Yes the hydrostatic release is delayed by the time it takes the unit to get sufficiently underwater but one would hope you'd never need that.

A quick check online and a 6man ISO9650 offshore life raft in a valise is around 32kg with the canister version 39kg. Assuming the bulk of the extra weight is the canister which is negated by the fact it is mounted ready to launch the life raft themselves are identical. And I don't know about you but hauling 32kg (70lbs) out of a cockpit locker then throwing it over the guardrails ain't going to be easy even in calm conditions. As way of comparison 32kg is the max baggage weight on an airline and gets you the fetching orange "heavy" tag on your suitcase.
I accept there is a risk that heat and humidity could damage a canister life raft but that same heat and humidity exist in the cockpit locker where my current valise life raft sits, yes it is not direct sunshine but it still gets hot in there when it is 37ºC outside.

I'm still in the canister mounted on the rails camp, if for no other reason than it frees up some space in my cockpit locker I can use for other stuff

Good post. Enjoyed reading it.

[ASTBoone]

Kas- Good post agreed. I suppose I could back off some on the canister life raft. I am not dead set against them, I just like the idea of have full control of the life raft once it is deployed. By having the life raft in hand and throwing it over, you have your hands on the painter/inflation line. You can manage the line as it comes out of the valise and you can also have your crew grab and hold the line as well. Keep in mind that approximately 40 feet of painter line is going to come out before the life raft inflates. This is one reason why placement of a canister is paramount. The idea of the painter line is to allow the life raft to deploy and then rest up against the side of your vessel so you can board it (or paint). If you drop a canistered life raft off of the aft part of your vessel, the painter line will place the life raft well behind your vessel, which means that you would have to go into the water and swim to the life raft.--Good luck with that. You may counter and say that you can pull the life raft back, but I can tell you first hand that you cannot pull a life raft against the wind push of your vessel. In other words the wind, which is normally very high during moderate to severe sea conditions will push your vessel faster than the life raft. The line will extend leaving the life raft to trail (drag) behind. You will not be able to pull the life raft back to the vessel (ballast).
If I were to use a canister, I would probably choose the rail drop vs. the on-deck canister. The only problem that I can see is the chances of it releasing during the storm. If a five year old can release it then it makes me believe a wave-over could release it as well. It happens.
I did three tours in Kodiak AK and I used to teach water survival up there. I now teach it here in Mobile AL and I'm amazed at how boaters down here believe that hypothermia is some kind of a Northern disease. I always tell them that the people in the North, realize that that water is cold and they prepare for it.
I wrote an article "Hypothermia In The Gulf?". It's on my website, but I don't want to direct this thread to my site. You should be able to Google it.

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by ASTBoone

Kas- Good post agreed. I suppose I could back off some on the canister life raft. I am not dead set against them,

Sir, it's good to have differing opinions and different experiences and to share them thereby widening the collective knowledge.

You are correct that the painter is, and always will be, a problem if you just let a life raft go. Under ideal circumstances even when you release a canister raft you should be able to control the painter and inflate the raft before the 40ft is out. At least that's what they taught us last time I did my sea survival but that was a helicopter life raft in a swimming pool

The clasps I have seen shouldn't come undone from wave action as they involve pushing a ring down then flipping the clip over to pop open the strap. Simple enough for a child to do but not something I would have thought a wave could do by chance. I may be wrong and I'd welcome any evidence to prove it is possible. That said I was on a rig in the GoM that had a life boat (50 person totally enclosed boat) washed over the side during a hurricane so anything is possible

Agree that we should always try to avoid getting in the sea if we can as a dry human will survive a lot longer than a wet one so having the raft as close to the boat as humanly possible is the best scenario. It also means a lot less bailing out once you are in the raft although that is a good way to warm up.

Most importantly the equipment is only as good as the knowledge of the person using it. If you have a valise raft and it's stuck in a cockpit locker (kind of like mine right now) and you can't haul it out then it is useless. Same with a canister raft that you can't activate or the lifejacket that is in the cupboard in your cabin. Whichever version you chose and where you stow it you still need to know how to use and deploy it.

Keiron

[Rustic Charm]

I think there is a lot of ill informed confusion around the two types of life raft packages. There were a lot of recommendations that came out of the 1998 Sydney to Hobart Race given that so many yacht crews had to abandon ship. And there were the sad situations where those who went into life raft perished where as other crew remained with the yacht and survived. etc. It also goe's into hypothermia and designs of life rafts. Most if not all the recommendations were put into changes of life rafts sold within Australia.

IMO there is very little practical (dispensing it) difference between either container. All life rafts in a container are designed for cradle storage in the open. They are still not water proof and therefore usually have holes on their bottoms to let water out. I really cannot see how Waves crashing over the boat can 'set them off'. That's simply not how they work. Mine is on deck and has had it's fair share of waves over it and never been a problem. Nor can I see how a five year old child can set them off or throw them over board. You shouldn't have to 'untie' them, as they should be set up with two hand grab quick release catches. As they should already be attached to the vessel, you shouldn't have to 'tie' them to the vessel either. If you do, then you are storing it contrary to the recommendations of the life raft manufacturer.

The valise or stuff bag option is designed for cock pit lockers or purpose designed lockers somewhere above deck. Nearly all rafts come with a recommendation that they are not kept down stairs due to the time and effort it takes to get to them and return to the deck. Which under real emergency situations you may not have the time or ability to do.

Some stuff bag options, usually with cheaper shore ones, you may have to 'unpack' the raft to get it ready to throw over board, and then tie it on, but I think most of these are being done away with.

The idea that with a canister life raft it will trail well behind the boat is absolutely no different than with a valise bag one. Either way, you tie it onto the deck before dispensing it, though the canister one should already be tied on.

The assumption that all canister life rafts are stored at the front of the vessel and therefore making it hard to get to in a raging storm is only a problem if that's where you store it. The same problem occurs if you store a stuff bag life raft in a Bow Locker. As others have indicated though, you can store either life raft close to the cockpit.

There is absolutely NO practical pro's and con's between the two, it all depends on your vessel and whether you have a 'dry' storage locker above deck somewhere to store a stuff bag life raft. If you don't, then you should go to a canister life raft as only the canister life raft is designed to be exposed to the elements.

[hellosailor]

What makes the most sense to me, out of everything I've heard here and elsewhere, is that a properly designed bluewater boat (there's those words again) should have a liferaft storage compartment in the companionway bridge deck. So it is "under" the deck, can be sealed just like a lazarette (but with no internal openings) and it is right there in the cockpit when you need it. Otherwise, protected a bit more from sun and moisture as well.


As to how water crashing on deck can set off a hydrostatic release or tear away a life raft? Ever use a fire hose? Even a 3-4" fire hose? One man holds the nozzle, a second man holds the hose so it won't run away from the first! Water pressure can be damned strong, surely you've seen it used for riot water cannons sweeping crowds off their feet and the streets? A crashing wave, dropping onto your deck (which may be sideways or even in the process of capsizing and rolling) can easily provide enough pressure to rip things clean off the deck, and tripping a hydrostatic release should be much of a stopper for it.
The numbers for columns of water (breaking waves crashing down) impacting on a boat vary a lot because the water isn't a fixed solid. But numbers like "one ton per square foot" aren't unknown either.


Bridge deck compartments being almost as common as hens' teeth...