What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

[alaskadog]

This long going discussion has been very valuable to me. Although not registering on this forum until just this summer, I followed the discussion for a long time and it helped tremendously in me deciding not to carry a firearm on my sailboat when I cruise, especially to foreign countries. Being a longtime owner of several firearms and some that accompany me in my vehicle when I travel on land and that I keep at home, I wondered what I should do for personal protection when I went to sea. Because the firearm ownership laws in most countries are more restrictive than for most areas of the USA and the incidence of random, personal attack is much lower than in most parts of the USA, it does not seem to be worth the hassle to carry firearms on cruising boats. I do carry a couple of machetes on the boat as well as a fish gaff and other tools that can be used as weapons for personal protection if I was attacked on board. I also carry a sizeable pocket knife that can be put to such use if attacked on land. Unlike crimes that are randomly perpetrated against travelers within the States from what I've learned via this forum most of the crimes against cruising sailors seems to be theft of items on or in your boat. It is unlawful to use deadly force against petty theives even in the States and oh yes I don't want to shoot my boat full of holes. Just a bit of a difference between holes in your car and holes in your boat. However, I must say that if you are halibut fishing in Alaska, you need a gun to dispatch the really big ones before you bring it on board.

Ah, guns for tools vs guns for protection. I agree on all points Joe.

[CaptainK]

Ahhh yes. Man wants to firmly believe that guns are a tool for almost every job at hand.

But, seriously. A tool for terrorizing. Mostly yes!!


Regards,

Kevin
CaptainK

[cyclepro]

Not my opinion but thought it would be nice to post. Unverified and unconfirmed statistics

Doctors:

(A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000
(B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%

Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services

************************************

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 (yes that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

Statistics courtesy of the FBI

........................................


So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more


Dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, guns don't kill people, doctors do.

FACT:
NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban

Doctors before this get completely out of hand!!!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld statistics on
Lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek
medical attention

[GordMay]

cyclepro:
Thanks for rthe humor. Sometimes these debates can get a little 'heavy'.

"...We must ban Doctors..."
Or we could take a page from the gun control book - and merely licence doctors - just like we do guns.

The argument is regarding the likelihood of “accidental” injury (due to doctors vs guns) is disingenuous, in that it ignores the more significant figures representing “intentional” injuries.

[Wahoo Sails]

I'm curious about a related issue ... flare guns as weapons? Certainly not a "weapon of choice" if one had the ability to choose, but to the best of my knowledge, no country denies one the right to carry a flare gun aboard ......right?
Bob & Lynn

L S/V Sew Good

[Ram]

Bob & Lyn

12 gage flare guns are only gonna make someone mad, unless you can hit them in the eyes up close, maybe. There not a very good weapon

I fired one into a 1x4 white pine wood & it bounced off with no damage!

[Alan Wheeler]

Somebody makes two sizes of steel insert to allow a flare gun to fire a .38 or a .32 bullet.

[merman365]

A nice 12g flare gun will most definitely burn a boat to the water line,yours or someone elses. Stay alert and use what you must to defend your loved ones,yourself and your property in that order.
The first rule is don't allow flakey types onboard.My boat is my home,I expect persons on my decks to respect that.If someone has boarded my boat with the intent to do me or my crew harm or rob us,I will give no quarter nor will I ask for any.AAARRGH!!!
I think most of us have been robbed by more marinas and ex-wifes than pirates with a RPG.Keep a clear head but also keep your powder dry.

[sv_makai]

I recently posted about 2 boardings in Ven that were armed. This is relaitivly new here as most of the crime is non violent. The locals are learning and it is escalating.

One of the boats involved was able to repel baorders due to superior firepower and the willingess to pull the trigger. The downside was criminals ended doing a drive by and a gunfire was exchanged. This is a version of the arms race and if the criminals determine that we as crusiers are shooting they will be more likely to shoot back.

Personel note. I grew with guns and have quite a few. We carry none on board, but have mace and a wicked machete at hand.

In this country as many other carrying guns are illegal. In the last few days the Guardia Costal has been boarding all boats in the marina checking, every little thing. Have a gun go to Jail!

[Lodesman]

Capt Bil,

From what I gather from your story of the crooks that were repelled, the shooting didn't start until the crooks were making their getaway, albeit empty-handed. At that point they weren't defending themselves, so this leads me to believe they did it: A) because they were angry, or B) because they wanted no witnesses - either way it appears they have no regard for human life. I think your friend was very lucky indeed that he was able to repel these murderous lowlifes.

We haven't yet decided on whether we'll carry guns aboard, but I'm leaning towards carrying a rifle and a shotgun, in part for security and in part as tools (dispatching big fish, or worse-case scenario being ship-wrecked). I understand in Greenland, the authorities expect cruisers to carry a gun - polar bears being higher on the food-chain than we, and good swimmers to boot. I would never consider taking handguns, even though I own them and am an avid target shooter. For one thing, they have no utility function; they can only be used at close range, where a shotgun would be more effective; and they would seem to be more prone to "disappearing" while in the custody of the local constabulary.

As far as the hassle of declaring them goes, I would like to hear more from those that have experienced these "hassles". Sure there may be only 'one-in-a-million' odds of being boarded, but there's also only 'one-in-a-million' odds that you'll need to use your life-raft, but no-one advocates going without one of them.

As for "have a gun, go to jail" that seems to apply to those guns that haven't been declared to the authorities. Better to know the rules, abide by them and declare the weapons you have on board. This includes mace/pepper spray, tasers, machetes, spearguns and in some jurisdictions, flare guns. I would certainly argue against using a flare gun against someone on your own boat - you'll end up in the water watching your boat burn to the waterline, with little chance the baddies will rescue you. Better to use the flare gun to fire a warning shot. If you can't shake a threatening vessel then, you could consider firing at the boat - let them deal with the fire, while you make your escape. Just an idea; I don't know of anyone who's actually used this technique.

Anyway, I'm not recommending that everyone be armed - as I said, we still haven't decided on it. It's like insurance, you weigh your risks and decide whether you want to pay the price or risk it.

Kevin

[sv_makai]

In Venezuela if you declare them you have to turn them in. It is questionable if you ever get them back. You need to have a Local License to have a gun and it is difficult to get. We know of one boat who is trying. As for boarding, the Guardia just boarded everyone boat in the marina for xmas inspection, all 250 of them in this marina.

We think that the boarders were trying to save face. Muchismo is very big here. At least no one was injuried that we know of. Our friends were lucky, but a stray bullet kills just as easy as one aimed with intent.

There are several machine shops here that will convert your flare gun to a stainless steel insert that will fit a 410 or 12 gauge shot shell. We have thought about it but as we stated before I am not sure about that route.

If we were crusing furhter our likew the Pacific or the Asian area we will proabably be armed as it can be even more lawless, but that is a descion for another year.

We are not recommending one way or another. Both have plus's and minus's, it is a decsion each must make and then live with the consequences.

" For one thing, they have no utility function;"
Kevin, I can think of one. I have had more than one occasion where I would like to put a bullet in my diesel

[Lodesman]

Kai,

Unless you have a stinkin' huge handgun, you'll most likely not get the desired result - shotgun with slugs is the way to put your diesel out of your misery

As for flare gun inserts - I would be extremely wary. Most very pistols I've used are probably too flimsy to withstand the pressure generated by a shotgun shell and they're not really built to be too accurate either. I've no empirical evidence - anyone out there ever use a shotshell insert in a flare gun?

Kevin

THe insert might work to your advantage if the bad guys take the weapon from you. Let that little piece of ABS plastic blow up in their face. I have seen the results of a rifle blowing up during firing. It is not pretty. I would not rust an insert. The force involved, even with a small caliber round is far more than a plastic gun can handle. Years back there was a bulliten in all the local PD's about bikers with shotguns built into the handlebars of their bikes. This is absurd. Might (and that is a big maybe) work once, but If the shooter survives, he will not get another shot. And that is 12 ga. steel. Zip guns have been around for years, and have the same issues. Look at the history of the .38 special.
Bottom line is safety if far more dependant on awareness than firepower.