What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

[Jentine]

What is the longevity of a gun in a marine environment? If the salt doesn't get it, some thief or worse, some COP will get it. Too many states and countries have bans against guns, especially unregistered ones. Is it worth going to jail over. If someone wants the boat, it is insured. If someone wants the stuff in the boat, it is insured. If I want security, I will stay home.
Some time ago, I saw a demonstration of pepper mace for hikers for use on attacking bears (grizzleys included). It was a large cansister of mace that discharged like a fogging spray. I like the idea of storing a canister in the boat that can be discharged remotely. If thiefs can't enter a vessel, they can't steal anything.

[chillers]

I think a sidearm would be ok but automatic wepons?

[Chas F]

I don't know why I can't resist these gun threads. First of all, I had always expected to carry a wide variety of guns aboard, yes, including RPGs. So, I'm inherently pro-gun, pro-defense and pro-use-of-overwhelming-force.

But the whole reason I want to cruise is to get away from this garbage. If I'm going to be sweating the immigration and customs officers in every new landfall just because I am carrying undeclared or illegal weapons to protect myself from the off possibility that pirates and robbers will kill me, it becomes no longer worth it to me.

I feel that Highlander pretty well stated my own view on the situation. But to sail the same waters as Islandchief60 and Mercator's Rich Sailor scares me as much as any pirate. How are either of them going to know I am a sailor in need of water or a spare radio part instead of a pirate, especially at 2 miles?!

By the way, Islandchief60, I kept up with the firearms discussion on Sailnet and the way I read it, about half were generally for them, half were generally against them, and most were were looking for suggestions. With all due respect, to say now that "All that have responded are aginst fire arms" sounds just a little paranoid. I do know that I would not want to share any cruising grounds with anyone who keeps a shotgun in the cockpit and waves it at approaching boats.

Chas

[Chas F]

Actually, Islandchief, I want to apologize for that last remark. I didn't mean to make that a perrsonal attack and I don't think you're paranoid. Sorry about that.

Chas

[Alan Wheeler]

I can only speak from a perspective of a NZ'er, where we grow up in a country where even our Police don't wear firearms in the normal course of duty. The err "roamnce" of the idea for my wife and I of sailing the world, is to meet new people, especially Sailors and it would horrify this timid Kiwi Lad to think that my approach to another Vessel may be meet with a steel barrel. Yes, it also scare's the living crap out of me with the story of Pirates and I still don't know how to deal with that one yet.
But aside from all that, if a vessel comes into a NZ port with Firearms, the firearms will be confiscated. I do believe that they are given back upon departure. But should any victim ever be shot in NZ waters, the shooter would be tried under NZ law and the chances are that they would be convicted of Manslaughter. Possibly Murder, but if it could be proven that the incident was indeed in self defence, it would probably still be a charge of manslaughter. Several cases have been heard in NZ courts over the years of people who have acted in defence of their property and they have usually been convicted. One or two have been let off because it was considered self defense in a seriouse life threatening assault.
It's a tricky one here and one that would become very hard to defend if there were few witnesses to the event.
Wheels

[tauras]

Redbeard: We lived for many years at 10000 ft some 50 miles south of lake george Co and now live in Colorado Springs after selling our home in the mountains this yr. Guns in the mountains is somewhat differant from guns on board. Yes we know how to use them and yes I would use a gun to protect myself while on board but the ramifications of carring a gun on board in a foreign country is to great to risk. If you have to ck your gun when you arrive at a foreign port what use is a gun then?
We just returned from Panama and we didn't take our guns this time. After being there the guns are a pain and not worth the effort to take them. Security is what you make of it. Being aware of your surroundings and not making yourself a target goes a long way to protect yourself. We take shifts at night on deck in remote areas while at anchor. Movement and noise make you a harder target and theives don't like harder targets. Beleive me we have been there and the local officals have an attitude about guns and their use in their country. If you accidently shoot someone no matter whos fault you are the one going to jail!!!! Simple precausions work great. We are leaving Colorado shortly heading for the Med and we are not taking our guns.
Tauras

[Wahoo Sails]

I competed in IHMSA, PPC, IPC, benchrest & International military rifle competions (many years ago) quite sucessfully, also made my living selling firearms at nationally recognized firms, including Weatherby's Sporting goods ... so it's safe for me to say I have history with firearms. My internal debate as to whether or not to carry a gun aboard, has not been an easy one ... I do see both sides of the coin.
I have decided not to bring a gun with me. To be legal, most foreign countries require you hand over the firearm (and or ammunition) upon arriving in their country. From what I have read, that's when you are most likely to need it ... in port, not at sea ... so ... if you have to hand it over when you're most likely to need it ... what's the point? The majority of the people that I know who travel with a firearm simply hide them .. most are quite proud of themselves for being so clever ... yet there is also a nagging paranoia about said firearm being found by the authorities .... and some authorities (such as the Puerto Rican DEA) will find it. Most foreign countries do not take such things lightly, confiscation of the vessel & long jail sentences are not unheard of.
If I have to hand it over when I might need it ... it's not worth bringing. If I hide it and run the risk of loosing all ... it's not worth bringing, to say nothing of the paranoia. So I have decided to voyage without a gun.
When I was a young pup, I seemed to be forever finding myself in fights (usually over a woman!) I have the scars, and busted up hands to show for it. With age & some wisdom, I am now proud to say I haven't been in a fight for a quarter of a century. I am far more proud of my ability to avoid situations that require a fight, then I ever was after winning one. I guess I will simply count on my abilities to stay out of trouble to see me safely into the future. Granted, one cannot always control the situation, but let's say a boat with 3 people carrying automatic weapons shows up .. a single person with a single gun, doesn't have much hope ... to all the Rambo wannabe's out there ... get real ... no ... you're not gonna "get'em all" before they get you.

L S/V Eva Luna
Bob

[Andy]

I must say that taking firearms on a cruising vessel is like driving around with a shotgun in your truck.

If you're in a decent neighborhood or out in the country the only things you can really use it for are to scare people or shoot at wildlife/cows.

On a sailboat, out in the open ocean the only good it would serve would be to shoot sharks.

But,
if you end up in the ghetto it sure aint gonna help you when a whole bunch of gangsters get a look at your truck and your "one" gun and find a damn good reason to kick your ass.

And when people who really are pirates decide they want to board your ship, one shotgun will only kill one or two of them, and then you will die and so will your family and friends.

I know that when I have the luxury to travel on a yacht as master and owner, I should not be so worried about having some of my worldly possessions stolen from me. I would be far more concerned about getting killed.

My last point has to do with attitude. It is especially applicable when traveling overseas. When you arrive prepared for an enemy you will always find one. When you come looking for a friend, again, you will always find one.

An opinionated bastard,
Captain Andy

[BC Mike]

Why would you shoot the wildlife / cows and sharks?
BC Mike C

[Andy]

I like hamburgers and shark meat is tasty

[medicmike]

Although I am new here I will put in my thoughts on this. I am about as pro-gun a guy that you will find. Used to be a ClassIII FFL (allowed me to deal in machine guns, supressors, etc). This has given me a glimpse of the complexeties of firearms law and a healthy respect for what the athorities can do to you if you run afoul of them. The thought of traveling to another country with a firearm aboard a boat just scares the crud out of me. I know of a case where a fellow spent time in a Mexican prison because he had a single shotgun shell rolling around the floor of his pickup. They nailed him in a search at a border crossing and convicted him with attempting to import ammunition. When he finally did get out he found that he could no longer possess firearms in the US as he was a convicetd felon (albiet in another country). Aother case was a friend of mine that was working as a missionary in Kenya. The church had sent them a couple frieght containers full of stuff. They had the proper permits to import a couple air rifles that were in the containers. Well, a customs official decied to arrest him anyway for trying to import firearms. He spent a couple weeks in a Mombassa jail cell while trying to get the import problems straigtened out (not an easy thing to do locked up in a third world jail). They finally released him (the guy with him died in custody of cardiac arrest) and most of the stuff they were importing got pilfered by the locals. This was all over a misunderstanding of a legal importation.

The idea of defending yourself against mugging, piracy, burglary etc is a very personal one. I have been well trained with firearms (former police officer/firearms instructor, I shoot IPSC and IDPA competition and do some hobby gunsmithing). I wouldn't hesitate to use a gun to defend myself or another and have no moral problem with taking the life of someone threatening mine. Often times just the presence of an armed victim is enough to stop an attack (remeber, most people that make thier living as criminals are pretty lazy and look for easy victims). But I sure wouldn't try to travel to a foriegn country armed. Even crossing jurasdictions in the US can get pretty sticky where firearms are considered.

[Mike]

Security on board is always a concern. Options other than lethal weapons are available and should be given some thought. We now have pepper spray. I enjoyed the idea of filling a cocpit with this using a extingusing method. We also have tazers available to us. Electric fencing is great. Now we have paintball guns with the same ingredent used in pepper sprays. They deliver a almost knock down punch, can fire 6 rounds per second. There is also high tech sound waves. Similar to a lazer this unit puts out a deafing sound that will make you cover your ears and run for the hills. As a lazer it only hits the person you point it at. Unless you are in the line of fire you do not hear a thing. Also a large extingusher of CO2 in the cabin will deter and thief from entering and could temporally blind him, temp freeze portons of him and get him off. Defense is something that is always on our minds. Look into these High Tech non lethal weapons. Any other suggestions. Carpet tacks on the deck is a nice idea also.

[Jentine]

I would stay out of Massachusetts with your high tech weapons if you desire to stay out of jail. Many of what you mentioned require a gun permit to own and some are banned weapons.
Jim Kane

[Mike]

Jim, many high tech weapons do not need a "gun permit" I would not plan on sailing into Mass anyway. These where alternative defensive items instead of guns. CO2 extinguishers do not require a gun permit. lol

[Jentine]

Tasers and mace do require a permit. Many jusisdictions have many laws and all are not common knowledge or known to the voyager. I would be very careful of having any type of weapon aboard that is strictly a weapon. A CO2 extinguisher is not a weapon any more than a boathook or a length of chain. An electric fence in a farmers field is an expected deterent; aboard a boat it is a booby trap. BE CAREFUL! You may get more than expected.

Jim

p.s. It is always to travel with your eyes wide open than your eyes wide closed.