What's Your Opinion? Firearms or Not?

[BC Mike]

The US policy that I was referring to includes the fuzziness around the issue of the right to bear arms, the general acceptance of arms in public and the law requiring guns in some areas. Many civilised societies have a dislike for the public carrying guns, not just lawless societies. That it was an Aussie that is armed is also unfortunate, the same for any nationality. The issue of the Spanish or any nations actions in the past, is the past. If we look close enough there are few if any places that do not have something that they are not proud of. In this debate I am not singling out any society, we all have criminals. It is just unfortunate that any society would feel the need to have to be armed for their own protection. Would you agree that it would be much better if none of us ever had the need to defend or arm ourselves. How we choose to do that I think, was the original question. BC Mike C

[delmarrey]

Yeah, that would be nice if no one had guns. And it would be nice if I didn't have to lock my door when I leave. But this is an imperfect world.
Out at sea I won't be carrying because even if I were to win a gun battle I'd have to deal with the local authorities and in some cases it would be better to be dead.
Here in the US we have laws to govern the use of weapons and if you abide by thoses laws, no problem. As for the criminals, you just can't shoot one and get away with it. They have to be a deadly threat and bearing a weapon. And if you don't have a weapon your self, well your SOL. When this country claimed it's Independance from Britian, it gave the citizans rights that garenteed to preserve our freedom and one of those was the right to bear arms against our enemies. It was directed at the militia's but the wild west laxed that meaning and it still stands today with exceptions. As for carrying a weapon, ones has to have a permit to conceal and in some places (zones) just to have ammo with the weapon. If you take away the guns then only the criminals will have the guns and that could be the government. And besides a knife can kill just as fast as any gun just not as far away.
The commies and solcialist don't want you to have guns, it makes it difficult to control the populas.
Regards................Del

[BC Mike]

Agreed. These are not easy issues. It is easy to point fingers but we have plenty of crime and murders in what we would like to think is a peaceful civilized society. My need for a gun is in case I have to put down an animal. I will not carry one aboard. Merry Christmas Michael Casling BC Mike C

[BC Mike]

When I logged on a few minutes ago and clicked on view new messages one of the messages listed in the firearms discussion was from me. I was in the basement working on a sail at the time it was supposed to be posted, and the computer was not on. Also there are no new messages on the firearms thread since my last one around Christmas 003. BC Mike C

[Troubledour]

Somebody cast a vote ...

Troubledour

[29cascadefixer]

" Don't like guns " and "Do like guns " are about neck and neck ! The " Not sures " are out in front by 4 votes. Sounds like Cascades' Truth number 255---Ahem- " Given enough possible decision outcomes, no one can make a decision ". Monty Python would probably say- " Hmmmmmmm- Shooters like guns, targets don't like guns, and we have a large crowd just to watch. Sounds like a Shootin' match to me.

[GordMay]

From "Sailnet"
Cruising Dangers, Part One
by Liza Copeland
After 100,000 miles spent sailing the globe, a cruiser formulates
some important advice regarding would-be thieves, handguns, and
pirates.
http://www.sailnet.com/view.cfm?page=12428

[capn_nik]

Just so I don't inadvertantly break any laws in foriegn countries I have decided to only take my flare gun as an emergency weapon. I contemplated my AR-15 but where the hell am I going to stow it? and I really don't want the marine environment making a expensive weapon useless due to corrosion or whatnot...they won't get much from me...I bury my treasure!...hahah 1939 boat and very unique..would be very hard to get rid of if ya stole it...weapons questions are difficult to answer...hhmmmmmmmmm

[Jentine]

What is the longevity of a gun in a marine environment? If the salt doesn't get it, some thief or worse, some COP will get it. Too many states and countries have bans against guns, especially unregistered ones. Is it worth going to jail over. If someone wants the boat, it is insured. If someone wants the stuff in the boat, it is insured. If I want security, I will stay home.
Some time ago, I saw a demonstration of pepper mace for hikers for use on attacking bears (grizzleys included). It was a large cansister of mace that discharged like a fogging spray. I like the idea of storing a canister in the boat that can be discharged remotely. If thiefs can't enter a vessel, they can't steal anything.

[chillers]

I think a sidearm would be ok but automatic wepons?

[Chas F]

I don't know why I can't resist these gun threads. First of all, I had always expected to carry a wide variety of guns aboard, yes, including RPGs. So, I'm inherently pro-gun, pro-defense and pro-use-of-overwhelming-force.

But the whole reason I want to cruise is to get away from this garbage. If I'm going to be sweating the immigration and customs officers in every new landfall just because I am carrying undeclared or illegal weapons to protect myself from the off possibility that pirates and robbers will kill me, it becomes no longer worth it to me.

I feel that Highlander pretty well stated my own view on the situation. But to sail the same waters as Islandchief60 and Mercator's Rich Sailor scares me as much as any pirate. How are either of them going to know I am a sailor in need of water or a spare radio part instead of a pirate, especially at 2 miles?!

By the way, Islandchief60, I kept up with the firearms discussion on Sailnet and the way I read it, about half were generally for them, half were generally against them, and most were were looking for suggestions. With all due respect, to say now that "All that have responded are aginst fire arms" sounds just a little paranoid. I do know that I would not want to share any cruising grounds with anyone who keeps a shotgun in the cockpit and waves it at approaching boats.

Chas

[Chas F]

Actually, Islandchief, I want to apologize for that last remark. I didn't mean to make that a perrsonal attack and I don't think you're paranoid. Sorry about that.

Chas

[Alan Wheeler]

I can only speak from a perspective of a NZ'er, where we grow up in a country where even our Police don't wear firearms in the normal course of duty. The err "roamnce" of the idea for my wife and I of sailing the world, is to meet new people, especially Sailors and it would horrify this timid Kiwi Lad to think that my approach to another Vessel may be meet with a steel barrel. Yes, it also scare's the living crap out of me with the story of Pirates and I still don't know how to deal with that one yet.
But aside from all that, if a vessel comes into a NZ port with Firearms, the firearms will be confiscated. I do believe that they are given back upon departure. But should any victim ever be shot in NZ waters, the shooter would be tried under NZ law and the chances are that they would be convicted of Manslaughter. Possibly Murder, but if it could be proven that the incident was indeed in self defence, it would probably still be a charge of manslaughter. Several cases have been heard in NZ courts over the years of people who have acted in defence of their property and they have usually been convicted. One or two have been let off because it was considered self defense in a seriouse life threatening assault.
It's a tricky one here and one that would become very hard to defend if there were few witnesses to the event.
Wheels

[tauras]

Redbeard: We lived for many years at 10000 ft some 50 miles south of lake george Co and now live in Colorado Springs after selling our home in the mountains this yr. Guns in the mountains is somewhat differant from guns on board. Yes we know how to use them and yes I would use a gun to protect myself while on board but the ramifications of carring a gun on board in a foreign country is to great to risk. If you have to ck your gun when you arrive at a foreign port what use is a gun then?
We just returned from Panama and we didn't take our guns this time. After being there the guns are a pain and not worth the effort to take them. Security is what you make of it. Being aware of your surroundings and not making yourself a target goes a long way to protect yourself. We take shifts at night on deck in remote areas while at anchor. Movement and noise make you a harder target and theives don't like harder targets. Beleive me we have been there and the local officals have an attitude about guns and their use in their country. If you accidently shoot someone no matter whos fault you are the one going to jail!!!! Simple precausions work great. We are leaving Colorado shortly heading for the Med and we are not taking our guns.
Tauras

[Wahoo Sails]

I competed in IHMSA, PPC, IPC, benchrest & International military rifle competions (many years ago) quite sucessfully, also made my living selling firearms at nationally recognized firms, including Weatherby's Sporting goods ... so it's safe for me to say I have history with firearms. My internal debate as to whether or not to carry a gun aboard, has not been an easy one ... I do see both sides of the coin.
I have decided not to bring a gun with me. To be legal, most foreign countries require you hand over the firearm (and or ammunition) upon arriving in their country. From what I have read, that's when you are most likely to need it ... in port, not at sea ... so ... if you have to hand it over when you're most likely to need it ... what's the point? The majority of the people that I know who travel with a firearm simply hide them .. most are quite proud of themselves for being so clever ... yet there is also a nagging paranoia about said firearm being found by the authorities .... and some authorities (such as the Puerto Rican DEA) will find it. Most foreign countries do not take such things lightly, confiscation of the vessel & long jail sentences are not unheard of.
If I have to hand it over when I might need it ... it's not worth bringing. If I hide it and run the risk of loosing all ... it's not worth bringing, to say nothing of the paranoia. So I have decided to voyage without a gun.
When I was a young pup, I seemed to be forever finding myself in fights (usually over a woman!) I have the scars, and busted up hands to show for it. With age & some wisdom, I am now proud to say I haven't been in a fight for a quarter of a century. I am far more proud of my ability to avoid situations that require a fight, then I ever was after winning one. I guess I will simply count on my abilities to stay out of trouble to see me safely into the future. Granted, one cannot always control the situation, but let's say a boat with 3 people carrying automatic weapons shows up .. a single person with a single gun, doesn't have much hope ... to all the Rambo wannabe's out there ... get real ... no ... you're not gonna "get'em all" before they get you.

L S/V Eva Luna
Bob