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Old 29-02-2016, 04:19   #241
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pirate Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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That's interesting. Do you have some examples on how the standards could be improved?

Prospective boat owners wanting a capable BWB.. build your own.. plenty of good designs out there that companies will not invest in because they are not profitable enough.. plastic crap from China is a thing of the past, the West now has the monopoly
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Old 29-02-2016, 05:27   #242
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Prospective boat owners wanting a capable BWB.. build your own.. plenty of good designs out there that companies will not invest in because they are not profitable enough.. plastic crap from China is a thing of the past, the West now has the monopoly
How about just buying any 10 to 50 year old solid GRP hull and adding lots of safety gear and few luxury items to it (if something is missing)? That is, if you are on a shoestring budget.

On the other hand, if there are no budget constraints, I believe there are still some manufacturers that give high priority to solid structure, seaworthiness and safety.
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Old 29-02-2016, 05:46   #243
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pirate Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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How about just buying any 10 to 50 year old solid GRP hull and adding lots of safety gear and few luxury items to it (if something is missing)? That is, if you are on a shoestring budget.

On the other hand, if there are no budget constraints, I believe there are still some manufacturers that give high priority to solid structure, seaworthiness and safety.
The newest boat I have owned was a 2001 Beneteau 331 that I bought in '06.. so 5yrs old.
Nice liveaboard.. salon sucked a bit for me but many consider them modern and stylish.. fine for Good Housekeeping Magazine..
Personal choices are Westerly's and other UK builds where the hull thickness below the waterline is in inches off thickness.. but then I'm old.. if I can see daylight through the hull it may meet performance criteria however contrary to everyone else on here and a few tales of victories in No Expense Spared Races its a piece of ***** as far as I'm concerned..
Not fit for purpose..
Over Priced and Under Built..

Cue experts Stage Left...!!
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:15   #244
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Teddy Teddy Teddy you have misunderstood. He was pointing out that a boat that meets the 'stated' criteria, which is for the conditions stated, then it would have to be a blue water. It's got nothing to do with whether you have, as I have, ever sailed in weather of those conditions. Capice?
Capice thou still doesn't agree. If the criteria is 7m waves 100km winds it's not blue water for high latitudes, barely coastal (on a good day) LOL
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Old 29-02-2016, 07:27   #245
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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They should've put a qualifying asterick there - "based on our advertising index".
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Old 29-02-2016, 08:03   #246
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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That's interesting. Do you have some examples on how the standards could be improved?
I'm sure some skilled individuals could write a book.
Just so that it is really clear that these standards are put together by the manufacturers and not a credible 3rd party are the brass thru hulls with a 5 year life.
If you want to see better built boats just look at the older Benni and the like. Rigged stronger,cast hatches rather than the cheap extruded ones used today. Hand holds thru out the boat. Real wood interiors properly tabbed to a much thicker hull. Proper backing without using fender washers, the list goes on. In my mind everything is going backwards, seems instead of the product getting better each year it's going the opposite direction in some cases. If I was wanting to own a Benni I'd be happier with an older one that had been well looked after.
OK with all that said new boats are more affordable today than they were yesterday. The new boats also meet the needs of 98% of the customers so I get it. In most cases these boats are dockside entertainment centers and weekend sailors and the builders are giving the buyers what they want at a price they can afford.
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Old 29-02-2016, 10:41   #247
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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I'm sure some skilled individuals could write a book.
Just so that it is really clear that these standards are put together by the manufacturers and not a credible 3rd party are the brass thru hulls with a 5 year life.
If you want to see better built boats just look at the older Benni and the like. Rigged stronger,cast hatches rather than the cheap extruded ones used today. Hand holds thru out the boat. Real wood interiors properly tabbed to a much thicker hull. Proper backing without using fender washers, the list goes on. In my mind everything is going backwards, seems instead of the product getting better each year it's going the opposite direction in some cases. If I was wanting to own a Benni I'd be happier with an older one that had been well looked after.
OK with all that said new boats are more affordable today than they were yesterday. The new boats also meet the needs of 98% of the customers so I get it. In most cases these boats are dockside entertainment centers and weekend sailors and the builders are giving the buyers what they want at a price they can afford.
Yes, the quality of boats may have gone down. Product quality has dropped also in many other product categories for similar reasons. People get richer and you can make the best profits by selling average stuff to average people rather than best quality stuff to the few rich experts.

There are still companies that make good quality boats, but they may be in trouble since also most millionaires just buy a boat from the most visible salesman with a nice brochure. And of course in the big crowd of boat owners most people want to buy the biggest and fanciest looking boat, not the one that only experts can appreciate.

The standards may do good job still by naming categories that are easy to understand to all. If some boats are listed as category A boats, people may indeed buy them if they want to put some emphasis on safety at sea.

In Finland yacht clubs also require yearly inspections where all the safety features of the boat are inspected (to the category that the owner chooses). That is also one good reminder of keeping the safety level of your boat up to date (includes also all the required equipment, not only the structural safety of the boat).

It is ok and good that there are many different kind of boats. All the safety rules and practices should be designed so that people will know what they are doing and how safe their boat is. The rest is up to the captain, i.e. to do something foolish or not.
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:08   #248
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Yes, the quality of boats may have gone down.
I feel that is only really true on the internet and as told by owners of old boats to make themselves feel superior (there's another name for this)
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:37   #249
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pirate Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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I feel that is only really true on the internet and as told by owners of old boats to make themselves feel superior (there's another name for this)
No wonder the worlds in a mess these days.. no one listens to their elders anymore.. unless they wear a uniform..
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Old 29-02-2016, 11:59   #250
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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I feel that is only really true on the internet and as told by owners of old boats to make themselves feel superior (there's another name for this)
It is possible that nowadays boats that have been built with no special focus on safety (i.e. more focus on other matters like size and price) are safer than boats that were built 100 years ago, with lots of attention to safety.

It is also possible that 100 years ago people were more aware of which boats (that were simpler then) are seaworthy, although they maybe had to sail out with weaker boats too to get food and earn money for the family.

Today the safest boats might be ones that are quite new but that have been sailed in blue water for a while and that have been well maintained. I would not trust a boat that has just been delivered from the factory.

A 20 year old boat might have already some weak spots like rusty pipes. But if they are well maintained, they should be at about the same level as the newer ones. Maybe more expertise needed when buying one.

In general, I put more emphasis on good maintenance and thorough understanding of the technology of the boat (also in new boats) than on the newness factor. An old rotten boat is of course no good, but if in good shape, age doesn't do much harm. Boat design has not changed too much in the last few decades.
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Old 29-02-2016, 12:06   #251
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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No wonder the worlds in a mess these days.. no one listens to their elders anymore..
Only true if one is an "elder" who technology is leaving behind
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Old 29-02-2016, 15:52   #252
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Only true if one is an "elder" who technology is leaving behind
OK I'll bite, what new technology makes brass thus hulls better than bronze??
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Old 29-02-2016, 16:19   #253
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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OK I'll bite, what new technology makes brass thus hulls better than bronze??
For you it's the inability to learn any new lines!
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Old 29-02-2016, 16:33   #254
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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OK I'll bite, what new technology makes brass thus hulls better than bronze??
The technology of rampant consumerism. Replace every 5 years instead of 30+.

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Old 29-02-2016, 18:34   #255
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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I see blue water boats start from $300k up �� Got it ��
Twelve Top Bluewater Cruising Boats - Sail Magazine
That is a bit about it: Bluewater boats need to be seaworthy and you can get that in a slighter smaller boat, if it is heavy one or on a bigger one, if it is lighter and both needs to be well built. Even if some will say that a bluewater boat can be a 30ft sailboat I would disagree. Sure it can cross oceans but a bluewater boat implies a safety margin that a 30ft boat cannot have in what regards stability.

Regarding being expensive, the slightly smaller but heavier one will not be less expensive (as you can see on new boats market examples) but it will be slower, with a smaller loading ability and interior volume.

A bluewater boat will always be expensive not to mention that the boat should be in perfect maintenance conditions and that is expensive too.

Note that like in that magazine, I am considered bluewater boats not voyage boats, but simply boats with a bigger safety margin in what regards crossing oceans than others, namely less well built boats or smaller ones.

Smaller boats or less well built ones (but built to category A standards) can be offshore boats able to cross oceans too with a reasonable safety margin, a smaller margin nonetheless. I would say that Category A is a good indicator of an absolute minimum regarding what should be the safety margin to do that. Off course I am referring to boats that pass Class A narrowly. And clearly, a boat that does not pass Class A requirements with a big margin cannot be a Bluewater boat.

Small Yachts (and all boats we are talking about are small ones) have limitations in what regards the type of conditions they can be sailed safely and are not designed to be sailed when storm or hurricane conditions can be found even if their safety margins regarding surviving those conditions will not be the same, all can be at risk on really bad weather.
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