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Old 28-02-2016, 05:53   #211
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

Ok, just thinking outside the square

Does colour have anything to do with it

I mean, are blue, red, green boats more seaworthy than white ones?
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Old 28-02-2016, 05:53   #212
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
,,
I doubt mine can loose its rudder? Maybe if i got stern ploughed by a tanker .
I hope you will never find out

I bet those guys on the Motiva thought the same as you. Motiva yachts are steel boats built on Denmark, very expensive boats and considering among the best heavy bluewater boats. I don't remember the cause of the accident but it was rather trivial. I will try to find out for you.
Sailboats built by Motiva Yachts by year on Sailboatdata.com

Edit:
I was almost sure that I remember the boat did not have hit anything but not being absolutely sure I did not wanted to state it.

The rudder just fell off, probably because of bad maintenance and a lose upper bearing, the boat was a Steel Motiva 49 and the worst was that it started to make water that was successfully stopped with a plug:

"It turned out that the rudder had fallen off, and the boat took in water.
The leak was stopped with a wooden plug in the rudder stock"
http://blog.mailasail.com/coraliv/123

I don't know of any other Motiva with rudder problems and they are certainly very seaworthy boats and are used for extensive voyaging.
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:03   #213
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel


Provision and Time
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:07   #214
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by Cap Erict3 View Post
The most outlandish requirement for a BWC that I have seen on this forum is that it must be able to sail on after a 360 degree roll.

Pretty tough stuff that.
Odd that almost no commercial fishing vessels (the type that go out in anything short of a hurricane) are good enough to qualify as a blue water boat.
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:10   #215
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Odd that almost no commercial fishing vessels (the type that go out in anything short of a hurricane) are good enough to qualify as a blue water boat.
Most fishing vessels are not built for severe weathers. They are going out in all sorts of weathers due to the restrictions caused by quota's.
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:27   #216
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pirate Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Odd that almost no commercial fishing vessels (the type that go out in anything short of a hurricane) are good enough to qualify as a blue water boat.
Because they are NOT unsinkable..
When I did my December crossing of the Biscay in '08 in my Hurley22, 3 large commercial fishing boats went down within 50 miles of me.. 2 Spanish and 1 Portuguese.
Strong NW gales (F10-12 depending where in the Bay you were) and sea's were reported 11 - 12 metres.. they were overcome.. I just bobbed about like a cork till I drifted close enough then started my Honda 5 and ran into Viviero..
That's just one example amongst a few personal experiences that convince me the that the Bigger is Safer argument has serious flaws..
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Old 28-02-2016, 06:48   #217
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Because they are NOT unsinkable..
When I did my December crossing of the Biscay in '08 in my Hurley22, 3 large commercial fishing boats went down within 50 miles of me.. 2 Spanish and 1 Portuguese.
Strong NW gales (F10-12 depending where in the Bay you were) and sea's were reported 11 - 12 metres.. they were overcome.. I just bobbed about like a cork till I drifted close enough then started my Honda 5 and ran into Viviero..
That's just one example amongst a few personal experiences that convince me the that the Bigger is Safer argument has serious flaws..
The point isn't that boats are unsinkable (if it was all the die hard lead tank affiandos would have switched to a cored catamaran).

The point is at what point is a boat reasonably safe. These fishing boats go out for days at a time year round. Thier exposure to risk is orders of magnatude higher than even the most adventurous cruiser. Yet thier boats are considered safe enough...for the saillors, for thier families and for the regulators.

Yet when it comes to cruising boats, the blue water gurus will claim they are unsafe because they don't understand how to assess risk.
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Old 28-02-2016, 07:26   #218
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Most fishing vessels are not built for severe weathers. They are going out in all sorts of weathers due to the restrictions caused by quota's.
So what you are saying is the professionals don't relaize they are going out in un-seaworthy boats?

Sorry but quota's have been around long enough that if it was the problem the new generation of boats would have taken care of it. Fisherman have always gone out in bad conditions because they need to put food on the table.
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Old 28-02-2016, 07:43   #219
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pirate Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post

Yet when it comes to cruising boats, the blue water gurus will claim they are unsafe because they don't understand how to assess risk.
I am not a 'GURU'.. far from it.. please enlighten me..
Cored boats don't sink.. they float around in a variety of pieces..
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Old 28-02-2016, 08:08   #220
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The point isn't that boats are unsinkable (if it was all the die hard lead tank affiandos would have switched to a cored catamaran).

The point is at what point is a boat reasonably safe. These fishing boats go out for days at a time year round. Thier exposure to risk is orders of magnatude higher than even the most adventurous cruiser. Yet thier boats are considered safe enough...for the saillors, for thier families and for the regulators.

Yet when it comes to cruising boats, the blue water gurus will claim they are unsafe because they don't understand how to assess risk.
Lagoons are cored catamarans and they sink as many other cored ones. Almost all modern cats are cored.
.................................................. .................................................. ...
Most of the Spanish and Portuguese boats are unfortunately very old boats in low maintenance condition. The fishing is every year less lucrative and the owners have no money to do proper boat maintenance or to substitute old vessels. Sad bu true.
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Old 28-02-2016, 09:02   #221
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
These fishing boats go out for days at a time year round. Thier exposure to risk is orders of magnatude higher than even the most adventurous cruiser. Yet thier boats are considered safe enough...for the saillors, for thier families and for the regulators.
A visit to a graveyard on any fishing village is a mind opener..
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Old 28-02-2016, 09:11   #222
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Sorry but quota's have been around long enough that if it was the problem the new generation of boats would have taken care of it. Fisherman have always gone out in bad conditions because they need to put food on the table.
I don't know much about quota and fishing rules of different countries, but I sure hope they are planned so that they do not force or encourage fishermen to go out when they should not (because of the weather). Current technology makes overfishing easy. That means that with good planning there is less need to lose lives than in the old days when the target was to catch as much fish as you can.
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Old 28-02-2016, 10:37   #223
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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A visit to a graveyard on any fishing village is a mind opener..
Statistically, its supposed to be one of the world's most dangerous professions.
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Old 28-02-2016, 11:04   #224
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I hope you will never find out

I bet those guys on the Motiva thought the same as you. Motiva yachts are steel boats built on Denmark, very expensive boats and considering among the best heavy bluewater boats. I don't remember the cause of the accident but it was rather trivial. I will try to find out for you.
Sailboats built by Motiva Yachts by year on Sailboatdata.com

Edit:
I was almost sure that I remember the boat did not have hit anything but not being absolutely sure I did not wanted to state it.

The rudder just fell off, probably because of bad maintenance and a lose upper bearing, the boat was a Steel Motiva 49 and the worst was that it started to make water that was successfully stopped with a plug:

"It turned out that the rudder had fallen off, and the boat took in water.
The leak was stopped with a wooden plug in the rudder stock"
SY Coral IV - Modus Vivendi igjen

I don't know of any other Motiva with rudder problems and they are certainly very seaworthy boats and are used for extensive voyaging.
Thanks for making an important point, Polux, namely that one shouldn't allow a mfg.'s solid reputation to allow complacency with regard to maintenance. But it also suggests a higher level of diligence may be necessary for those few who put hard ocean use on vessels who's critical systems are more lightly and inexpensively built. Maybe that's a distinction, to the extent it even exists, between "coastal" and "bluewater" vessels, namely the build quality of hulls, scantlings, keels, rudders, and rigging, i.e. critical structural/safety systems.

Obviously easier to discuss than it likely is to figure out if you're a typical boat buyer. Almost impossible to keep track of actual failures amongst different types & brands it seems, and then to try and figure whether the failures were due to age, poor maintenance, or faulty/weak design or construction from the get-go. Given all the boats which may be considered "coastal cruisers" by some but are nevertheless out plying "bluewaters," it may have more to do with sailors' personal margins for safety & comfort, whether actual or perceived.
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Old 28-02-2016, 20:02   #225
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Re: Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Ive taken this topic from another thread which i didnt want to hijack.

It seems to me people have differences in understanding in what is Coastal Cruising, what is Ocean Cruising, and the what the safety needs of the vessel, contents, build is for each.

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===

I may have missed it but I'm a bit surprised that no one (AFAIK) has mentioned the ISO classifications or standards. The ISO (International Standards Organization) has actually published quite a bit of information that is relevant to this discussion.

Here are some links:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...217-1-1443.htm

The first link introduces the notion of 4 different categories: A, B, C & D, with category A being the most severe - wave heights to 7 meters, wind gusts to 100 km/h. I think we'd all agree that a boat meeting that standard qualifies as a blue water cruiser. In my mind anything in Category B or lower is more of a coastal cruiser although the exact dividing line is certainly subjective.

ISO 12216:2002 - Small craft -- Windows, portlights, hatches, deadlights and doors -- Strength and watertightness requirements

This link speaks to specific criteria for things like windows, hatches, doors, etc., with regard to strength and watertighteness requirements.

https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:...216:ed-1:v1:en

More on definitions and scope.
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