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Old 14-08-2014, 12:21   #46
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

I guess crocs are out as possible culprits and, while some may feel that life is more dangerous in the United States, at least they have no domestic kidnappings of foreign cruisers by terrorist groups.

Brad
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Old 14-08-2014, 15:31   #47
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

Better watch it, Southern Star, otherwise GYAP, the one post wonder (7/19/14) will take you to task about claims of crime in that area.

Abu Sayif is a known terrorist group. It is a known kidnapper of folks in that area of the southern Philippines. I would love to cruise in that area but would likely avoid it for the reason of Abu Sayif alone.
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Old 15-08-2014, 04:05   #48
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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I guess crocs are out as possible culprits and, while some may feel that life is more dangerous in the United States, at least they have no domestic kidnappings of foreign cruisers by terrorist groups.
Sorry before you point out more bul... have a look at this article
2000 Sipadan kidnappings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a German family, the Wallerts, were hostages in this case too.
So it seems to be very similar.
Entführungsfall Abu Sayyaf – Wikipedia
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Old 17-08-2014, 17:28   #49
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

This is from the rumour line.

Someone recently released confirm the couple is being held.

This is at best third hand.

SHAME On anyone, or any government, that even talks to terrorists.
All that does is encourage more.
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Old 18-08-2014, 10:00   #50
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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SHAME On anyone, or any government, that even talks to terrorists.
All that does is encourage more

I don't mind threads where you report facts. I do mind them being hijacked to provide us with over simplistic "one-liners". Every "terrorist" group in the world is "talked" to by governments, its the only way some progress is made. I mean even the British eventually talked to George Washington.!
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Old 18-08-2014, 11:06   #51
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

The British eventually talked to George Washington.

Yep, right after he whooped their ass @ Yorktown. If he had so much as showed his face around any British installations he would have been summarily hung from the nearest tree as a traitor.
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Old 18-08-2014, 11:18   #52
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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The British eventually talked to George Washington.

Yep, right after he whooped their ass @ Yorktown. If he had so much as showed his face around any British installations he would have been summarily hung from the nearest tree as a traitor.

I think you need to read the War of Independence history a bit closer and in fine detail. During it , several attempts were made by the British to establish diplomatic relations and seek a negotiated ending

see Staten Island Peace conference , Carlise peace Commission, Clinton-Arbuthnot Peace Declaration. In all cases the British, while non accepting rights to full independence, where prepared to pardon those involved in the Revoluntary war.

Not unlike what happened in places like NI. for example.

Despite public announcements of "never give an inch" and all associated BS, RealPolitik demands that pragmatists sit down in a messy compromise to try and resolve such issues. ( or at least to attempt to). Governments the world over know this to be the real truth , even if certain sections of their population are supposedly "hardline". In practice the "hardliners" are often the most pragmatic, since they alone can bring their support with them.

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Old 18-08-2014, 11:34   #53
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

Being more facetious than anything here - sorry I didn't make that clear.

The world is a different place. The revolutionary forces in the colonies and the British looked at the world in a very different way 200+ years ago. It is why I didn't give much weight to your comment about GW and the Brits.

There have been a few instances where Islamic terrorists heeded calls for discussion. Frequently for purposes of delaying and scheming. In the end, they respond to their inner voices. Even something as simple as sparing the carved Buddhas in Afghanistan was beyond discussion.

Some of these captives have been released after ransoms were paid. As you will likely know, this is a fund raising effort. Unless cash is involved, where is their incentive? Those jungles are hard to penetrate as we have seen in previous efforts to locate and secure the release of hostages by force of arms.
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Old 18-08-2014, 12:05   #54
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

Sorry, what bul..... are you suggesting that I was pointing out -that it wasn't crocodiles (as some have suggested) or that there are kidnappings of sailors by terrorist groups in the Phillipines, but not in the USA? I would have thought that both statements were pretty clear by now.....
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Old 18-08-2014, 12:30   #55
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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Being more facetious than anything here - sorry I didn't make that clear.

The world is a different place. The revolutionary forces in the colonies and the British looked at the world in a very different way 200+ years ago. It is why I didn't give much weight to your comment about GW and the Brits.

There have been a few instances where Islamic terrorists heeded calls for discussion. Frequently for purposes of delaying and scheming. In the end, they respond to their inner voices. Even something as simple as sparing the carved Buddhas in Afghanistan was beyond discussion.

Some of these captives have been released after ransoms were paid. As you will likely know, this is a fund raising effort. Unless cash is involved, where is their incentive? Those jungles are hard to penetrate as we have seen in previous efforts to locate and secure the release of hostages by force of arms.
I merely make my point to counter the nonsense that is "not an inch" or "well never bargain with terrorists". We all well know that in fact the exact opposite happens, and it happens because very few groups are simply crazed zombies. Most either have a political reason or a goal or simply that they want cash.

So when people "don't negotiate", most of the time thats just nonsense.

Islamic Terrorism, is such a broad broad church so to speak, that simply the "label" itself is too generic to mean much, There are moderates, hardliners, difficult situations, situations where they feel aggrieved, just as there are some groups that come close to the zombie definition.

Like all solutions, it will require a settlement, and a few strong arm tactics as well, neither on its own is sufficient.

In the case of the Somali pirates, clearly for Western govs, the priority was to negotiate the safe release of its citizens. Then act tough. Of course the fate of 1000s of stander Asian seamen gave us little concern!!!!
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Old 18-08-2014, 13:10   #56
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

Negotiating with the Somali pirates which included paying their ransoms only emboldened them and enriched them. I would not characterize them as terrorists, they were simply non-religious opportunists whose industry expanded as the targets hardened somewhat. But their ransoms were in the millions and the pirates enjoyed quite the lifestyle with their ill gotten booty. Complicating the situation was the fact that ocean going commercial vessels were not armed as to do so is to risk seizure in the various ports they may visit so they were sitting ducks. Some anti-piracy techniques proved somewhat effective but it wasn't until brute force applied by several navies that engaged in cooperative effort which the pirates could not overcome no matter how creative they got, that the pirate activity abated to a large degree. No negotiations were involved.

Sometimes folks negotiate with the absolutists. The Israelis do it and in spades. They have been known to release hundreds of terrorists to secure the release of one, or just a few, captured IDF members. They do so knowing that it will embolden the Palestinians. They believe this is offset with the raised morale of the Israeli citizenry - it's all a calculation. There aren't any Israelis who would tell you it's anything but dealing with the devil. Nothing long term is gained.
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Old 18-08-2014, 13:50   #57
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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Negotiating with the Somali pirates which included paying their ransoms only emboldened them and enriched them. I would not characterize them as terrorists, they were simply non-religious opportunists whose industry expanded as the targets hardened somewhat. But their ransoms were in the millions and the pirates enjoyed quite the lifestyle with their ill gotten booty. Complicating the situation was the fact that ocean going commercial vessels were not armed as to do so is to risk seizure in the various ports they may visit so they were sitting ducks. Some anti-piracy techniques proved somewhat effective but it wasn't until brute force applied by several navies that engaged in cooperative effort which the pirates could not overcome no matter how creative they got, that the pirate activity abated to a large degree. No negotiations were involved.

Sometimes folks negotiate with the absolutists. The Israelis do it and in spades. They have been known to release hundreds of terrorists to secure the release of one, or just a few, captured IDF members. They do so knowing that it will embolden the Palestinians. They believe this is offset with the raised morale of the Israeli citizenry - it's all a calculation. There aren't any Israelis who would tell you it's anything but dealing with the devil. Nothing long term is gained.

no doubt we are or have crossed the Cf political line, but we shall of course keep it all very civil.

The origins of Somali piracy are well documented, it began as a protest by fishermen, proclaiming the hijacking of their fishing areas, but was quickly seized upon by more organised gangs as the rewards rocketed.

But the fact remains, Rich western states or their families etc had very little choice but to pay these ransoms, neither did insurance companies.

Military intervention has in fact been incredibly mild, because of the risk of collateral damage. In the main most of the intervention merely consisted of "scaring" away potential hijackers.

The primary reason that hijacking is ending is that commercial ships developed mechanisms, and protection strategies that made it very difficult for pirates to gain control, locked engine rooms, the use of command "citadels", high speed running, water cannon and armed response units , just made the opportunity too dangerous for most pirates.

Coupled with removing the transits by "slow and low" yachts meant that targets dwindled and pirates were faced with covering greater areas for lower returns.

Certain military interventions such as EUNAVFOR action on the beaches etc, while showing resolve , did little in reality. Political pressure in Jutland to take control of the lawlessness in fact did more to help control it.


Ultimately very few conflicts have ever been properly resolved through pure force, limited military action can achieve certain short term gains or "tip the balance", but ultimately everyone ends up around the table.


I will refrain from partaking in the current Israeli-Palestinian situation, who is "dealing with the devil" can be a very different perspective, especially here in Europe. As they say one man freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

dave
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Old 18-08-2014, 15:22   #58
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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The origins of Somali piracy are well documented, it began as a protest by fishermen, proclaiming the hijacking of their fishing areas, but was quickly seized upon by more organised gangs as the rewards rocketed.


dave
My perception was it started with the return journeys of the people smugglers.
Taking people from Africa with the ultimate destination of Europe, the skiff would take them from Somalia to Al Mukalla in Yemen to be passed onto Arab organised crime to Russian criminals who sent them north then west into Europe by any number of routes.
The skiffs on the return journey would be open to targets of oportunity as scum-bag criminals the world over are likely to do.
At some point the side bets were making more than the main game, so the game changed.

At the moment the game seems to have changed again back to people smuggling. But for how long? Maybe till some little sailing boat happens along past a returning skiff. Or a skiff of fishermen heading home with nothing to show for their fuel burnt...


Certainly makes more sense than politically indoctrinated but poor fishermen turning to Marxism to shake a collective fist at the Western world.
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Old 18-08-2014, 15:55   #59
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Re: Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

I am familiar with the European perspective. I will remain, as always, civil.
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Old 18-08-2014, 20:23   #60
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Were two German sailors Kidnapped in the Phillipines?

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My perception was it started with the return journeys of the people smugglers.
Taking people from Africa with the ultimate destination of Europe, the skiff would take them from Somalia to Al Mukalla in Yemen to be passed onto Arab organised crime to Russian criminals who sent them north then west into Europe by any number of routes.
The skiffs on the return journey would be open to targets of oportunity as scum-bag criminals the world over are likely to do.
At some point the side bets were making more than the main game, so the game changed.

At the moment the game seems to have changed again back to people smuggling. But for how long? Maybe till some little sailing boat happens along past a returning skiff. Or a skiff of fishermen heading home with nothing to show for their fuel burnt...


Certainly makes more sense than politically indoctrinated but poor fishermen turning to Marxism to shake a collective fist at the Western world.


Well it has been documented that the specific origins of the Somali pirates were originally an attempt to highlight or stop what they saw as massive unrestricted foreign fishing of their local waters , destroying their livelihoods. The earliest captures were on fact deep sea fishing trawlers operating along the Somali coast.

Then the money men got involved. The results then being totally predicable.

Dave
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