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Old 17-01-2007, 13:13   #31
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The reason this is happening is because of the Cuba non-aligned Summit that just took place this September. At this summit the stars of anti-imperialism were Hugo Chaves, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (Pres Iran), and Fidel's brother, Raul, along with leaders from 116 other nations. Our government is becoming nervous because, with Castro on his way out and Raul on his way in (I guess), an unstable situation in Cuba could arise from the change in leadership. Chances are the gov knows things we don't ie. arms buildup (again) in Cuba and they are afraid cruisers are partaking in it. Whether there is any credibility to this or not we can't know.

Either way I think it sucks pretty hard that the gov can seize your boat. Why not just do a little inspection on the high seas like all the other pirates? Maybe the government has become fed up with paying a lot for their yachts and just decided to steal them. Either way things are not only starting to wreak of Vietnam but also the cold war.


As for this conversation being apropriate for this forum. It is if it pertains to cruising if not just move on to move-on.org or or ImpeachBush / VoteToImpeach: or whatever.
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Old 17-01-2007, 13:20   #32
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Also here is a link to show you why our gov is feeling a little threatened by Cuba right now. I notice Raul says nothing of sailboats in this speach so I really think Bush just wants some cheap yachts.
[NYTr] NAM Summit: Raul Castro Remarks to Heads of State - Sep 15, 2006
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Old 17-01-2007, 13:37   #33
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"The reason this is happening is " What's happening? The USC citation just says the US is conforming to international law. Authorizing authorized military vessels or government charts to conduct government business is a non-event. Authorizing foreign nationals to enjoy the freedom of the high seas, another non-event.

What will happen in Miami is more important than what will happen in Cuba. Fidel's brother is not as adroit at governing as Fidel was but there will be no armed uprising. One of Fidel's first moves after he got into power, was to announce "Comrades, you'll never needs arms again! Lay them down!" and he collected all the weapons that had been used to put him in power. Thus ensuring he could never be thrown out by force of arms. A common refrain among dictators that sadly seems to work every time.

Changes in Cuba? No. Street riots in Miami from guests who don't know how to behave in public? Yes.

"SSDD".
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Old 17-01-2007, 14:29   #34
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I suppose the place for me to start this is by stating categorically that I personally have no plans to visit Cuba ...not that I wouldn't ... it's just not in my plans.
Having said that, I will say that I know quite a few people that have been there in recent years .. one leaving soon, another that has been there 5 times in 2 years. How? Simple, don't ask, don't tell. They sail out of the marina without filing an official float plan, a month or so later, they sail back into the marina .. and simply say nothing to the officials.
Aaahhhh yes .. "the officials". Apparently clearing back in to the good 'ole U-S-A has become quite the joke. Of the dozen or more people that I know that have come back from the Bahamas, not a single one has been able to clear in the way the govt wants it done. Please note the use of the words "BEEN ABLE TOO" ... as in yeah, these blokes hadn't done anything illegal (the Bahamas cruisers) so why not do it legal like? Well ... how about someone that is within eyeballs distance from you telling you that you have to drive 60 miles (when you obviously don't have a car) to take care of the transaction there. OR ... bankers hours ... "whaddya mean I can't clear in at 4:00PM on a Friday ... I have to stay outside till Monday morning!"
IMHO people want to be honest & up front with officials (for the most part) ... but if it's ever gonna work, the officials need to do their part as well ... we need reasonable laws properly enforced .... to get back to the very first post to this thread, the problem is, it isn't a reasonable law.
Bob
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Old 17-01-2007, 15:19   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
"The reason this is happening is " What's happening? "SSDD".
What is happening is the reason for this thread. The Government is going to start seizing vessels that they "suspect" are bound for Cuba. Last I checked this wasn't happening before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
Fidel's brother is not as adroit at governing as Fidel was "SSDD".
On what grounds are you saying this? I was not implying that there will be an armed uprising I was just saying that there was a shift in the head of power in Cuba; things change when this happens ie. Cuba hosts a summit against imperialsm - ie. the US government starts seizing vessels.

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No. Street riots in Miami from guests who don't know how to behave in public? Yes."SSDD".
Please explain this further.
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Old 17-01-2007, 15:48   #36
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I am truly dissapointed in W. I admit I voted for him (twice). Don't know if the other guy would have been better, but gee W, come on, how many ways can you screw things up?

George
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Old 18-01-2007, 00:02   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
Tony, the USCG boarding of foreign flagged vessels on the high seas seems to be condoned, but I can't help thinkning that when the Brits did it, it led to the War of 1812, so it is probably illegal, immoral, and unethical, much as it may be necessary for defense in some cases.
Normal procedure is for warships to get permission of the vessel's country when boarding a foreign flagged vessel on the high seas. This is in accordance with the international law of the sea treaty. As I understand it, there are routine procedures for doing this, and it may take only a few minutes for the US to get permission to board your boat from your government. In some cases, that permission may already have been granted in advance, e.g. as part of an agreement to stop drug smugglers.
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Old 18-01-2007, 12:48   #38
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The USCG boarded my 32 ft sailboat in open water without ant conversation by having a helicopter hover over me while six jackbooted officers (armed) climbed over my rail, 1987.
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Old 18-01-2007, 18:35   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunspot Baby
I am truly dissapointed in W. I admit I voted for him (twice). Don't know if the other guy would have been better, but gee W, come on, how many ways can you screw things up?

George
Where do you want us to start?

But hey, it's not a political discussion as such, so i'll leave it alone.

Dave
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Old 18-01-2007, 19:00   #40
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Originally Posted by dana-tenacity
The USCG boarded my 32 ft sailboat in open water without ant conversation by having a helicopter hover over me while six jackbooted officers (armed) climbed over my rail, 1987.
And then? What did they want?
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Old 18-01-2007, 20:26   #41
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Unbusted, "What is happening is the reason for this thread. " You're saying that what is happening now, is the reason for a 2004 thread? I'm sorry, that makes no sense to me.

And the fact that you've used "quotes" of my post--but edited within the quotes so they are not quotes, confuses me more. I don't mind being quoted--but I mind the quotes being changed.

" I was just saying that there was a shift in the head of power in Cuba; things change when this happens" Yeah, but things change all the time. Meetings and politicing and grandstanding happen even when the same people stay in power. You could argue that the Cuban government has been stable for 40 years, and it is the US that has been unstable and changing over that time.

"Explain" Explain street riots in Miami? Every time someone farts in Cuba, or some Cuban farts en route to the US, the Cuban districts in Miami hold riots in the street. Riots to celebrate, riots to protest, riots to rejoice, doesn't matter, anytime there's any "news" about Cuba the Cubans who are *guests* and *refugees* in Miami raise havoc. This summer they raised havoc because the USCG "thugs" shot at a go-fast boat filled with 30-40 Cubans inbound to the US, when the fast boat tried to escape boarding. Well, if you're in US waters carrying that many people in a boat that isn't rated to hold more than a dozen...you damn well don't try to evade an armed military boarding party unless you can accept being shot at. That kind of news is routine in Miami. The Marielistas weren't all innocents thrown in prison by a despot, and many of the Cubans in Miami seem to think street riots and demonstrations are appropriate for anything that they're unhappy about. Including routine US border enforcement.

Coot-
You're right, and that's just something even more unclear. We don't need to pass additional internal laws in order to conform to international treaty. But here's a riddle for you: The USCG is not a military force. They are, very much intentionally and for good reasons, a "dual" agency. In time of peace they are an administrative agency (which exempts them from many things) and--at least before DHS existed--they were an administrative agency under the Dept. of Transportation, which was then to be formally transferred to the DoD as a military branch in time of war. And only in time of war.
I haven't been able to find out what their new legal standing is, AFAIK they are still a dual force but under DHS instead of DOT, and AFAIK still not a military ageny because the US is not at war. Congress never declared a general state of war, at least not that I heard about. They never exercised the War Powers Act to stop the deployments to Iraq (even thought they are discussing that now) but...no Congressional Declaration of War? Then the USCG is still an administrative agency, not a military force.
I tried asking my US Senators when a war was declared...neither responded. I guess they missed the notice, too.
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Old 19-01-2007, 13:08   #42
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Dear hellosailor, The fact that this thread was posted in 2004 makes my argument null and void. The non-alignment summit happened in september 06 so unless Bush is psychic (highly doubtful) then I am just plain wrong.

You seem angry and I am sorry if I misquoted you that was not my intention.

I asked you to explain the riots in Miami because I hadn't heard of anything like that in a very long time. Thank you for your information.

On a closing note I will say that things have been very stable in Cuba for about the last 40 years. Stable and very poor. This is in part because the US will do no business with their neighbors. It is arguable who is the offending party for the so-called human rights abuses in Cuba, the man who got them into the mess, or the country that holds a grudge about the mess they are in. If the US does not like the condition of the Cuban people perhaps it should allow cruisers into the country to help with tourism etc.
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Old 19-01-2007, 13:18   #43
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Unbusted, no harm no foul.

A lof of what would seem like national news just never gets outside of where it happens, I have family near Miami so I try to stay current with what's happening there. I know even in my own city, events that one would think are newsworthy (local protests, etc.) never make it to the Nightly Nooze, apparently whether young blondes are wearing underwear in public or passing out sells more commercial air time.

Cuba and the US policies...can't say I know anyone who fully understands or agrees with them either. If we meddle we are "capitalist imperialists" and if we remain aloof then we are "uncaring isolationists".

Well...the Cubans made him Supreme Leader for Life. I'm not at all sure how we're to be held responsible for that, or for failing to change it.
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Old 19-01-2007, 13:33   #44
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Coot, they performed a perfunctory search, woke up my girlfriend (how long does ot take 6 men to search a 32 ft boat?), I was retained on deck with the ranking officer. I asked him what he was looking for and he said small boats were smuggling Haitians to the US ( I was between Haiti and Cuba). I suggested to him that as I was heading south it was unlikely I would be carrying haitians desparately trying to sneak back into Haiti.
He then admitted they had been out there for quite a while and i was the first boat they had seen, and it gave them something to do. They left and I tried to clean up my teak deck.
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Old 19-01-2007, 19:15   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
But here's a riddle for you: The USCG is not a military force. They are, very much intentionally and for good reasons, a "dual" agency. In time of peace they are an administrative agency (which exempts them from many things) and--at least before DHS existed--they were an administrative agency under the Dept. of Transportation, which was then to be formally transferred to the DoD as a military branch in time of war. And only in time of war.
I might not be using exactly the right terms. As you've pointed out, the CG is usually a police agency, not a military force. Maybe the term I am looking for is "ship in government service" or something like that. My point is that they routinely board non-US vessels with permission from the other government. They can board US vessels anywhere in the world under US law. (The supreme court says that amendment IV doesn't prevent them doing it, but it is unclear to me how they reached that conclusion.)
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