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Old 11-10-2012, 15:42   #121
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

[QUOTE=David_Old_Jersey;1056633]From the sounds of it if he wasn't on his boat he would be under a bridge. if there was space locally ......../QUOTE]

I agree 100%.
I think those man is not a boater and is not living the 'live-aboard experience'. I think he is a derelict and has just found a 'crash pad' that happens to be a boat.
I might be wrong.
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Old 11-10-2012, 15:42   #122
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
Yes, I too can lack empathy. I lashed out (perhaps unfairly) at Rebel Heart in response to what I perceived as his habitually harsh condemnation of anyone not following the rules. If you've ever been to Germany you'll understand the personality. I apologies to you Rebel Heart for calling you on it on it when I can be equally as intolerant.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but to give more than a passing thought to one old man's turds in the water when right next to it is a veritable flood of feces from the city sewer is just ludicrous. Which is pretty much in line with the thrust of my argument: that maybe we don't have the moral right to molest people as they go about their private lives. Im not convinced Jay is a danger to others. I believe he had substandard anchoring gear but now he doesn't? So whatright do we have to interfere anymore with his life? Its real easy to claim the moral high ground and claim one is acting only in the best interest of all concerned blah blah blah...but thats just covering up a bad motive with a good one. I say let Jay live his life in peace. If he wants to wallow in filth and animal excrement then that's his right to do so. His being dirty or an eyesore is none of our business.

I sure hope no one tries to protect me from myself when I finally learn to sail and decide to go on a risky adventure. I don't plan to sail for more than a few weeks before I embark upon an ocean passage and yes, I might hurt myself. Hmmm, maybe I do need to be protected from myself after all.

I think the problem lies in deciding where to draw the line. How much control over other people's lives should we exercise? My line would be drawn in a much different place then is currently drawn in American culture.

Huh? There's a flow of human feces into Boca Ciega Bay? No there's not ...

What right do we have to interefere? Are you kidding? Ok, YOU park your boat out there, and when his current gear deteriorates -- and it will -- we can position your boat so you take the blow.

We should let him let his dog suffer because he was in denial about the seriiousness of the dog's medical needs?

You weren't here. You didn't see, I guess, that the boat couldn't be taken ANYWHERE under its own power. Engine dead, mast gone, no way to raise sails, and a non-working, rusting washing machine on deck. In addition to the sick dog, an infestation of both roaches and rats.

This would never be tolerated on land. If you built a shed that could put all your neighbors at risk in a bad storm, you would be required to anchor it properly or take it down.

It is ASTOUNDING to me that after all that's been said about it, someone who hasn't been involved with the situation in any way can just blandly state that it's a situation of some people trying to trample on the rights of others and that worse is going on all around him.

You are assuming "bad motives" that to my best knowledge simply do not exist.
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Old 11-10-2012, 15:51   #123
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
when the land owners make enough complaints, the anchorage will be permanently closed , as they did in kali--city even closed federal anchorages because of complaints -- founded as well as unfounded-about the folks in the anchorages, derelict or fancy yachts--or even antique schooners in beautifully refit condition. does not take a constitutional change--just a city that is fed up with listening to their constituency complaining
anchorage , ak, and seattle wash and san francisco already had their purges--is florida's turn.. is changing, and not for the best or better. keep watching.

No, Zee. Anchoring is protected by the Florida constitution -- IF the anchored boat is a "cruising boat." To be a cruising boat it has to move once in a while. Jay's boat has no means of propulsion. Neither do the bird sanctuaries out there. HERE there may be a few stupid people who can't comprehend the distinction, but they don't have any traction. Concern about truly derelict boats (no doubt what that means here) is a different matter. If you lived along the shore, would you want a stinking bird sanctuary parked in your back yard? You really want someone's human waste washing up? You're OK with that? I think it's reasonable to be against those things. I can't speak to the rules in place in any of the places you name -- don't even know what "kali-- city" is -- but the practice of saying that a bunch of other terrible things WILL happen if we deal with a clear and present problem is just wrong.

He sold the boat, and the boat is moved. Fine. We still have a bunch of derelict boats out there, including a motor cruiser that has been an ongoing problem for years and has been aground on a bayou since well before Debby. I think one regulation should be added: a person should have to demonstrate adequate ground tackle, protect those boats that do.

Nowhere in this have I spoken about the "appearance" of boats. We had an old wooden schooner anchored off the town for a long time, clearly untended, but with beautiful lines. Worms ate into it and it sank. It was raised once, but sank again, and then was inflated and towed away. It was very sad to see that boat die, but the owner tried to find a way to save her, and the boat didn't go smashing about on other boats or things in storms. She was adequately secured, but the maintenance necessary for a wooden boat hadn't been done in years and the guy just didn't have the money. I was sorry for that but owner did act responsibility.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:04   #124
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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If you arrest him, he will just move from the street, to a jail, or homeless shelter, and it will suddenly cost the city a great deal more money to deal with him.

and that likely is the reason for the current approach.

Whilst I cannot disprove the claim that it costs $100k to dispose of a boat, nonetheless if that was true would explain why the local govt was broke - not from spending the cash on scrapping derelict boats, but from paying top dollar (and then some!) on other contracts, and likely that to "freinds and family"..........
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:41   #125
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

It's about time the Capt Jay threads/posts ended, starting to sound like a mini series for drama queens.....

Give his name a rest ffs........
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:12   #126
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post

Gulfport (nor any U.S. city) does NOT dump human waste into the waterways, it is treated and much of the water recovered is recycled as sprinkler water, etc. The solid wastes are treated, then reused as fertilizer or burnt as a fuel.
Actually that's not true for many, "any", US cities. Most municipal treatment facilities can not handle both the effluent processing on-top of a rain storm. So any time it rains there can be hundreds of thousands of gallons of RAW SEWAGE going into the bay. Trust me we've been paying for the "fixes" to this in Portland for 20+ years yet NOTHING has been done and after every rain storm tons of $hit flows into the bay UNTREATED..... Portland, ME is not alone in this problem yet people just turn their heads and point the finger at us "wealthy" boaters as the "problem"...


This was posted in our local paper a while back:

Quote = Portland Press Herald:
"Every time a steady rain falls on Maine, millions of gallons of untreated sewage and storm water overflow collection pipes and spill into streams and coastal waters. More than half of that pollution pours out of pipes scattered around the city of Portland. Overflows in the city last year totaled about 1.8 billion gallons - about 30 million gallons for every inch of rain.

Portland was supposed to begin a three-phase, 15-year cleanup plan in 1993. But as of the end of 2006, two years before the original deadline, the city had eliminated just six of 33 targeted overflows, according to the state."


My Comment: Where is the outrage over this?

"When we have (overflows), we're getting human waste, we're getting storm water and we're getting industrial effluent. It does have an effect on the ecosystem," said Joseph Payne, bay keeper for the nonprofit Friends of Casco Bay."

"Why haven't they made progress when 36 other cities have?" said Sen. John Nutting, D-Leeds.

The same bay, the above article was referencing, is the same one made an NDZ (No Discharge Zone) a couple of years ago, while our State Government decided to look the other way on 1.8 billion gallons of raw UNTREATED sewage dumped by the city of Portland and its residents...

When will the feel good attacks on boaters and other small segment groups stop and real legislation be accomplished? Sadly, not soon is my guess... We've long passed our 2006 "compliance date" and still we dump HUGE amounts of raw effluent into the bay with each rain storm..

1.8 billion gallons and "environmentally friendly" Maine has done nothing except to go after a few boaters, who already complied with the laws far better than our own state and municipalities. With some of the highest taxes in the country you'd think Maine would have the funds to fix our sewer systems but there is usually no real action and only a bunch of empty talk and attacks on the "low hanging fruit" or the "easy targets", like us boaters.

They attack these small segments of the population like the "evil wealthy boaters" because it is easy and looks good in campaigns to make themselves look good. What is most offensive is that it's usually done in a class warfare style.

After all we boaters are "wealthy" and we can all afford to rip our Lectrasan units out, which are cleaner than what the state dumps into the bay...

Do some research and you will find that Portland, ME is no where near the worst offender of dumping raw sewage into the bay. It is actually a very, very common practice with little done, or done at a snails pace, to improve the situation. We have been paying over $120.00/MO for this to be fixed and being charged for it since 1993!!! Prior to 1993 the water bills were about $8.00-$10.00/MO.... What have we got in return for our 19 years of fees to fix this? NOTHING, plus I had to rip out our Lectrasan which cost more $$$$$$... !!!!!!!

Rant over....
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:47   #127
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Actually that's not true for many, "any", US cities. Most municipal treatment facilities can not handle both the effluent processing on-top of a rain storm. So any time it rains there can be hundreds of thousands of gallons of RAW SEWAGE going into the bay. Trust me we've been paying for the "fixes" to this in Portland for 20+ years yet NOTHING has been done and after every rain storm tons of $hit flows into the bay UNTREATED..... Portland, ME is not alone in this problem yet people just turn their heads and point the finger at us "wealthy" boaters as the "problem"...


This was posted in our local paper a while back:

Quote = Portland Press Herald:
"Every time a steady rain falls on Maine, millions of gallons of untreated sewage and storm water overflow collection pipes and spill into streams and coastal waters. More than half of that pollution pours out of pipes scattered around the city of Portland. Overflows in the city last year totaled about 1.8 billion gallons - about 30 million gallons for every inch of rain.

Portland was supposed to begin a three-phase, 15-year cleanup plan in 1993. But as of the end of 2006, two years before the original deadline, the city had eliminated just six of 33 targeted overflows, according to the state."

My Comment: Where is the outrage over this?

"When we have (overflows), we're getting human waste, we're getting storm water and we're getting industrial effluent. It does have an effect on the ecosystem," said Joseph Payne, bay keeper for the nonprofit Friends of Casco Bay."

"Why haven't they made progress when 36 other cities have?" said Sen. John Nutting, D-Leeds.

The same bay, the above article was referencing, is the same one made an NDZ (No Discharge Zone) a couple of years ago, while our State Government decided to look the other way on 1.8 billion gallons of raw UNTREATED sewage dumped by the city of Portland and its residents...

When will the feel good attacks on boaters and other small segment groups stop and real legislation be accomplished? Sadly, not soon is my guess... We've long passed our 2006 "compliance date" and still we dump HUGE amounts of raw effluent into the bay with each rain storm..

1.8 billion gallons and "environmentally friendly" Maine has done nothing except to go after a few boaters, who already complied with the laws far better than our own state and municipalities. With some of the highest taxes in the country you'd think Maine would have the funds to fix our sewer systems but there is usually no real action and only a bunch of empty talk and attacks on the "low hanging fruit" or the "easy targets", like us boaters.

They attack these small segments of the population like the "evil wealthy boaters" because it is easy and looks good in campaigns to make themselves look good. What is most offensive is that it's usually done in a class warfare style.

After all we boaters are "wealthy" and we can all afford to rip our Lectrasan units out, which are cleaner than what the state dumps into the bay...

Do some research and you will find that Portland, ME is no where near the worst offender of dumping raw sewage into the bay. It is actually a very, very common practice with little done, or done at a snails pace, to improve the situation. We have been paying over $120.00/MO for this to be fixed and being charged for it since 1993!!! Prior to 1993 the water bills were about $8.00-$10.00/MO.... What have we got in return for our 19 years of fees to fix this? NOTHING, plus I had to rip out our Lectrasan which cost more $$$$$$... !!!!!!!

Rant over....
Perhaps, I should have said, since the Clean Water Act of 1972, it has been illegal to dump raw sewage (industrial waste, etc.) into U.S. Waters. I will point out that the 1.8 Billion gallons of overflow you speak of is not all human waste, in fact most of it is rainwater. In effect, it would appear that Portland has decided to use the old "dilution is the solution" because they haven't fixed the problem.

It should be noted that Portland is not the only city that has this problem, but that said, EVERY city in the U.S. that has that problem has a deadline in which to fix the problem.

If Portland doesn't fix the problem before their deadline (I don't know when that is), they will face some pretty big fines from the federal government, which I'm sure will be passed on to the residents. You might want to start attending city council meetings.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:01   #128
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Anybody got a way to find a stored copy of the original photo that was the root of this thread? It is no longer posted on the originally linked site. WIthout the picture, the whole thing is more difficult to understand and interpret.
Thanks
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:07   #129
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post
Perhaps, I should have said, since the Clean Water Act of 1972, it has been illegal to dump raw sewage (industrial waste, etc.) into U.S. Waters. I will point out that the 1.8 Billion gallons of overflow you speak of is not all human waste, in fact most of it is rainwater. In effect, it would appear that Portland has decided to use the old "dilution is the solution" because they haven't fixed the problem.
A lot of it is human waste, but obviously not all. However a gentleman on our committee back in 2003 did the math and discovered that 1" of rain equaled more raw effluent into the bay than every boat dumping 100% of its waste direct overboard for an entire season. All one needs to do is visit Casco Bay after a rain storm and take a whiff, it is disgusting, the water actually turns brown and smells......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post
It should be noted that Portland is not the only city that has this problem, but that said, EVERY city in the U.S. that has that problem has a deadline in which to fix the problem.
Yep and our last deadline went by in 2006. The feds evidently keep granting "extensions"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post
If Portland doesn't fix the problem before their deadline (I don't know when that is), they will face some pretty big fines from the federal government, which I'm sure will be passed on to the residents. You might want to start attending city council meetings.
At this point I don't know when the next deadline is either but we've had and gone by a number of them.. I got quite involved back in 2002-2004 when they were again jacking our rates to pay for the "fixes".

No one cared that they had been taking our money since 1993 and fixed less than 5% of the issues. No one really cared about the raw effluent or other pollutants being dumped into the bay and most on the committee, and in local govt, and at the state level just accepted it as the "norm".

Those that would listen just claimed "We just need more money"..... Ummmm you've been taking our money since 1993 and done virtually NOTHING with it???

Our water bill now greatly exceeds our electric bill, this despite low flow everything and the most energy and water efficient appliances you can buy. Yet after 19 years of paying for the "fixes" we are still dumping raw sewage into the bay, pretty frustrating... Arghhh.......
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:12   #130
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

The term for sewage overflow is "unplanned release." Yes, it happens so often there is terminology. In my neighborhood, for at least 20 years. Or so the REPORTS to the local Dept of Env Quality say. Yes, it's even documented, and nothing is done.

E.coli, anyone?
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:05   #131
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Actually that's not true for many, "any", US cities. Most municipal treatment facilities can not handle both the effluent processing on-top of a rain storm. So any time it rains there can be hundreds of thousands of gallons of RAW SEWAGE going into the bay. Trust me we've been paying for the "fixes" to this in Portland for 20+ years yet NOTHING has been done and after every rain storm tons of $hit flows into the bay UNTREATED..... Portland, ME is not alone in this problem yet people just turn their heads and point the finger at us "wealthy" boaters as the "problem"...


This was posted in our local paper a while back:

(edited for brevity ...)

Do some research and you will find that Portland, ME is no where near the worst offender of dumping raw sewage into the bay. It is actually a very, very common practice with little done, or done at a snails pace, to improve the situation. We have been paying over $120.00/MO for this to be fixed and being charged for it since 1993!!! Prior to 1993 the water bills were about $8.00-$10.00/MO.... What have we got in return for our 19 years of fees to fix this? NOTHING, plus I had to rip out our Lectrasan which cost more $$$$$$... !!!!!!!

Rant over....

Do some research on the little town of Gulfport and you will find that there are no sewage treatment plants there. I'm quite sure if we had raw sewage pumping into that water the beach would be closed, as the water is tested here regularly (and some beaches are closed periodically because the count is too high). There is nothing new in this problem, but

it's not an issue in Gulfport.

That's why I believe the problem of boat waste -- if it even exists here -- could be dealt with.

It IS the big concern here, because one of the things the Gulfport beach has going for it is that it is so far away from that type of contamination.

Accidental spills have happened here in both the Hillsborough River and the Manatee River, but not anywhere the area in discussion.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:12   #132
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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You just keep making things up. Quite the talent there.
the $100k figure for scrapping a boat was not my figure. All I do is add 2 and 2 together.

IME if folks are that dumb it's usually not by accident. YMMV.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:30   #133
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

scrapping boats is very costly--to the owner of the boat--in preparaton for dispo--every bit of toxic material is removed. tanks and engine and motors are removed, everything, and this is done on anhourly basis-- boat is gutted, and fuels are recycled and the license for the dispo is pricey and hard to obtain due to the toxicity of the waste, as defined by epa.
100,000usd is not far under the norm.
yes i have friends who do this for a living. is not cheap to dispo a boat. if you do it yourself, the fines are exorbitant.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:45   #134
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Before posting in this thread please be SURE you are wearing your "polite panties" so that others don't have to get their in a wad. And I don't have to babysit this thread. Thank you.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:55   #135
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Do some research on the little town of Gulfport and you will find that there are no sewage treatment plants there. I'm quite sure if we had raw sewage pumping into that water the beach would be closed, as the water is tested here regularly (and some beaches are closed periodically because the count is too high). There is nothing new in this problem, but

it's not an issue in Gulfport.

That's why I believe the problem of boat waste -- if it even exists here -- could be dealt with.

It IS the big concern here, because one of the things the Gulfport beach has going for it is that it is so far away from that type of contamination.

Accidental spills have happened here in both the Hillsborough River and the Manatee River, but not anywhere the area in discussion.
Sorry, I think if you read my post you'll see that I was addressing the comment; "Gulfport (nor any U.S. city) does NOT dump human waste into the waterways"

I was not directly commenting about Gulfport, nor did I, but rather the "nor any US city" comment because there are other US Cities that do not comply, even though Gulfport does.... Sorry for the confusion.
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