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Old 11-10-2012, 10:55   #106
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
I still think if these folks that are at anchor in your area bother ya so MUCH ! get active in your local stuff, make some noise in city meetings, county meetings ect! posting on this forum will do little to cure the problem ya have there !! Now Thats what I have done and would do again if something like this botherd me as much as it seems to bother some of the folks on here!! But I will say any changes that happen will probly be against anchoring at all! As thats the way things seem to be going in Florida!! so be a little carefull of what ya ask for ! Just my 2 cents

In Florida that would require a change to the Constitution and is unlikely.
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:14   #107
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
I suspect that much of the animosity directed towards boaters anchored has less to do with discharge of waste or derelict boats than the unfortunate habit of people turning on anyone different than themselves. It would be the same with a homeless encampment or a hippy commune.
Many things to say here. I've heard things said like this plenty of times. I think that sometimes people cannot step into other people's shoes and see how they are seeing. I've read about many scientific research studies about the difference social intelligence of people based on political alignments. Its amazing how a disagreement in policy will make people feel differently towards each other.

People as a whole have trouble crossing the empathy boundary when they see others who aren't in the same mind state. This is a natural human behavior. I think you may be guilty of it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virginia boy
There are people all over like Rebel Heart, who lack empathy. They themselves are high functioning people and can't see, or don't care that everyone doesn't have the ability to function at that level. Some have physical limitations, many have only subtle mental issues like attention deficit disorder, or depression which may keep them from being able to keep their boat clean and sparkling.

It doesn't matter to the non empaths. If they can pull themselves up by the bootstraps then so too should everyone else. If those dirty livaboards can't clean up their act then take their boat/home and lock them up in a jail or institution. As long as they're not visible, thats whats important.
Rebel Heart doesn't lack empathy. He may lack it in this particular case. Or perhaps he sees the man and feels bad but understands that good policy is linked to results, not feelings. Sort of a Milton Freedman school of thought. Or perhaps he is empathizing with the people that must suffer the burden of supporting the poor Captain Jay's disability, either through tolerance, or through efforts at rehabilitation. In this case it goes further to affect cruisers via giving the land owners ammunition to fight their rights legally. Those that have disabilities that demand the attention of society do burden society on some level and burdens just love legislation.

In any event, lacking empathy may not be the real case you're trying to make. What you're saying is that Rebel Heart doesn't feel bad enough for Captain Jay to try to help him. And perhaps that is accurate. However, if we all did this, it may result in bad policy. Try to understand that it takes all types to solve problems. Rebel Heart is one voice as are you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virginia boy
Poor Jay clearly suffers from mental issues and doesnt pay taxes, and possibly is a net fiscal loss for the town but what ya gonna do...take his boat and make him homeless but on land? Great move! Now he can crap in a doorway where it'll really cause you trouble and sleep on your front porch. Meanwhile the city dumps several tons of human waste into the very same waterway and receives no attention from the locals.
This is a false dilemma. Kicking Jay off of a boat that is unsafe for him and for those around him does not mean they want him to become homeless and destitute. What it means is that they see a problem (he is a danger) and wish for a solution (take him out of the dangerous situation). Thus this discussion. It isn't about hurting Jay. Its about Jay not hurting himself and others. Some people don't think past that. What will Jay do when kicked off his boat?

In regards to the city dumping... Yes, it is an issue. However, just because someone is doing a huge wrong doesn't make a little wrong right. Dumping crap off the boat is wrong. Period. So is crapping in a doorway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virginia boy
I don't know if tolerance and compassion is something learned or innate but its disheartening how unforgiving some people can be.

There but for the grace of god go I.

OK that's my rant.
Remember that forgiveness and tolerance are two different things. I forgive Jay his problems but I would not tolerate his harming/endangering of others. Empathy, tolerance, and love all come in many flavors. Some of them seem colder than others. If we had only tolerance and refused to judge anyone, we would embrace evil as well as good. Judgement, tolerance, and self governance are great gifts to the minds of men that allow us to choose superior paths.

Finally, I'm not a mental health expert, just an armchair philosopher, but has anyone considered contacting the local government or non-profit mental health agencies in an attempt to get them to contact Captain Jay?
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:24   #108
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
Many things to say here. I've heard things said like this plenty of times. I think that sometimes people cannot step into other people's shoes and see how they are seeing. I've read about many scientific research studies about the difference social intelligence of people based on political alignments. Its amazing how a disagreement in policy will make people feel differently towards each other.

People as a whole have trouble crossing the empathy boundary when they see others who aren't in the same mind state. This is a natural human behavior. I think you may be guilty of it too.



Rebel Heart doesn't lack empathy. He may lack it in this particular case. Or perhaps he sees the man and feels bad but understands that good policy is linked to results, not feelings. Sort of a Milton Freedman school of thought. Or perhaps he is empathizing with the people that must suffer the burden of supporting the poor Captain Jay's disability, either through tolerance, or through efforts at rehabilitation. In this case it goes further to affect cruisers via giving the land owners ammunition to fight their rights legally. Those that have disabilities that demand the attention of society do burden society on some level and burdens just love legislation.

In any event, lacking empathy may not be the real case you're trying to make. What you're saying is that Rebel Heart doesn't feel bad enough for Captain Jay to try to help him. And perhaps that is accurate. However, if we all did this, it may result in bad policy. Try to understand that it takes all types to solve problems. Rebel Heart is one voice as are you.



This is a false dilemma. Kicking Jay off of a boat that is unsafe for him and for those around him does not mean they want him to become homeless and destitute. What it means is that they see a problem (he is a danger) and wish for a solution (take him out of the dangerous situation). Thus this discussion. It isn't about hurting Jay. Its about Jay not hurting himself and others. Some people don't think past that. What will Jay do when kicked off his boat?

In regards to the city dumping... Yes, it is an issue. However, just because someone is doing a huge wrong doesn't make a little wrong right. Dumping crap off the boat is wrong. Period. So is crapping in a doorway.



Remember that forgiveness and tolerance are two different things. I forgive Jay his problems but I would not tolerate his harming/endangering of others. Empathy, tolerance, and love all come in many flavors. Some of them seem colder than others. If we had only tolerance and refused to judge anyone, we would embrace evil as well as good. Judgement, tolerance, and self governance are great gifts to the minds of men that allow us to choose superior paths.

Finally, I'm not a mental health expert, just an armchair philosopher, but has anyone considered contacting the local government or non-profit mental health agencies in an attempt to get them to contact Captain Jay?

We can't say he was hurting no one else, because his dog was a case of serious medical neglect.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:29   #109
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
Many things to say here. I've heard things said like this plenty of times. I think that sometimes people cannot step into other people's shoes and see how they are seeing. I've read about many scientific research studies about the difference social intelligence of people based on political alignments. Its amazing how a disagreement in policy will make people feel differently towards each other.

People as a whole have trouble crossing the empathy boundary when they see others who aren't in the same mind state. This is a natural human behavior. I think you may be guilty of it too.



Rebel Heart doesn't lack empathy. He may lack it in this particular case. Or perhaps he sees the man and feels bad but understands that good policy is linked to results, not feelings. Sort of a Milton Freedman school of thought. Or perhaps he is empathizing with the people that must suffer the burden of supporting the poor Captain Jay's disability, either through tolerance, or through efforts at rehabilitation. In this case it goes further to affect cruisers via giving the land owners ammunition to fight their rights legally. Those that have disabilities that demand the attention of society do burden society on some level and burdens just love legislation.

In any event, lacking empathy may not be the real case you're trying to make. What you're saying is that Rebel Heart doesn't feel bad enough for Captain Jay to try to help him. And perhaps that is accurate. However, if we all did this, it may result in bad policy. Try to understand that it takes all types to solve problems. Rebel Heart is one voice as are you.



This is a false dilemma. Kicking Jay off of a boat that is unsafe for him and for those around him does not mean they want him to become homeless and destitute. What it means is that they see a problem (he is a danger) and wish for a solution (take him out of the dangerous situation). Thus this discussion. It isn't about hurting Jay. Its about Jay not hurting himself and others. Some people don't think past that. What will Jay do when kicked off his boat?

In regards to the city dumping... Yes, it is an issue. However, just because someone is doing a huge wrong doesn't make a little wrong right. Dumping crap off the boat is wrong. Period. So is crapping in a doorway.



Remember that forgiveness and tolerance are two different things. I forgive Jay his problems but I would not tolerate his harming/endangering of others. Empathy, tolerance, and love all come in many flavors. Some of them seem colder than others. If we had only tolerance and refused to judge anyone, we would embrace evil as well as good. Judgement, tolerance, and self governance are great gifts to the minds of men that allow us to choose superior paths.

Finally, I'm not a mental health expert, just an armchair philosopher, but has anyone considered contacting the local government or non-profit mental health agencies in an attempt to get them to contact Captain Jay?
Yes, I too can lack empathy. I lashed out (perhaps unfairly) at Rebel Heart in response to what I perceived as his habitually harsh condemnation of anyone not following the rules. If you've ever been to Germany you'll understand the personality. I apologies to you Rebel Heart for calling you on it on it when I can be equally as intolerant.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but to give more than a passing thought to one old man's turds in the water when right next to it is a veritable flood of feces from the city sewer is just ludicrous. Which is pretty much in line with the thrust of my argument: that maybe we don't have the moral right to molest people as they go about their private lives. Im not convinced Jay is a danger to others. I believe he had substandard anchoring gear but now he doesn't? So whatright do we have to interfere anymore with his life? Its real easy to claim the moral high ground and claim one is acting only in the best interest of all concerned blah blah blah...but thats just covering up a bad motive with a good one. I say let Jay live his life in peace. If he wants to wallow in filth and animal excrement then that's his right to do so. His being dirty or an eyesore is none of our business.

I sure hope no one tries to protect me from myself when I finally learn to sail and decide to go on a risky adventure. I don't plan to sail for more than a few weeks before I embark upon an ocean passage and yes, I might hurt myself. Hmmm, maybe I do need to be protected from myself after all.

I think the problem lies in deciding where to draw the line. How much control over other people's lives should we exercise? My line would be drawn in a much different place then is currently drawn in American culture.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:33   #110
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
Yes, I too can lack empathy. I lashed out (perhaps unfairly) at Rebel Heart in response to what I perceived as his habitually harsh condemnation of anyone not following the rules. If you've ever been to Germany you'll understand the personality. I apologies to you Rebel Heart for calling you on it on it when I can be equally as intolerant.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but to give more than a passing thought to one old man's turds in the water when right next to it is a veritable flood of feces from the city sewer is just ludicrous. Which is pretty much in line with the thrust of my argument: that maybe we don't have the moral right to molest people as they go about their private lives. Im not convinced Jay is a danger to others. I believe he had substandard anchoring gear but now he doesn't? So whatright do we have to interfere anymore with his life? Its real easy to claim the moral high ground and claim one is acting only in the best interest of all concerned blah blah blah...but thats just covering up a bad motive with a good one. I say let Jay live his life in peace. If he wants to wallow in filth and animal excrement then that's his right to do so. His being dirty or an eyesore is none of our business.

I sure hope no one tries to protect me from myself when I finally learn to sail and decide to go on a risky adventure. I don't plan to sail for more than a few weeks before I embark upon an ocean passage and yes, I might hurt myself. Hmmm, maybe I do need to be protected from myself after all.

I think the problem lies in deciding where to draw the line. How much control over other people's lives should we exercise? My line would be drawn in a much different place then is currently drawn in American culture.

I certainly agree that the nanny state is out of hand.

I cannot speak or know personally if this fellow is endangering those around him, so I do not. I just hope the guy gets the help he needs and the issue doesn't impact the cruising community at large.

Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:37   #111
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

My understanding is that Jay Burki no longer owns the boat, it is moved, and his whereabouts is unknown.

That solves the boat problem. Burki has been offered help, but he needs to help himself. Whether he will follow through on that is suspect. It is a choice he can make.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:47   #112
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Instead of the Dead End Drive-In, we can make the Dead End Marina! Vagrants check in, but they don't check out.

Or, the final solution....
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Old 11-10-2012, 13:03   #113
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

when the land owners make enough complaints, the anchorage will be permanently closed , as they did in kali--city even closed federal anchorages because of complaints -- founded as well as unfounded-about the folks in the anchorages, derelict or fancy yachts--or even antique schooners in beautifully refit condition. does not take a constitutional change--just a city that is fed up with listening to their constituency complaining
anchorage , ak, and seattle wash and san francisco already had their purges--is florida's turn.. is changing, and not for the best or better. keep watching.
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Old 11-10-2012, 13:30   #114
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by virginia boy View Post
I suspect that much of the animosity directed towards boaters anchored has less to do with discharge of waste or derelict boats than the unfortunate habit of people turning on anyone different than themselves. It would be the same with a homeless encampment or a hippy commune.

There are people all over like Rebel Heart, who lack empathy. They themselves are high functioning people and can't see, or don't care that everyone doesn't have the ability to function at that level. Some have physical limitations, many have only subtle mental issues like attention deficit disorder, or depression which may keep them from being able to keep their boat clean and sparkling.

It doesn't matter to the non empaths. If they can pull themselves up by the bootstraps then so too should everyone else. If those dirty livaboards can't clean up their act then take their boat/home and lock them up in a jail or institution. As long as they're not visible, thats whats important.

Poor Jay clearly suffers from mental issues and doesnt pay taxes, and possibly is a net fiscal loss for the town but what ya gonna do...take his boat and make him homeless but on land? Great move! Now he can crap in a doorway where it'll really cause you trouble and sleep on your front porch. Meanwhile the city dumps several tons of human waste into the very same waterway and receives no attention from the locals.

I don't know if tolerance and compassion is something learned or innate but its disheartening how unforgiving some people can be.

There but for the grace of god go I.

OK that's my rant.
Congratulations, you have managed to make Jay a victim and society (and their rules) the bad guy.

From what I saw Jay got plenty of help, from many "rule following" people, and yet he still won't comply. If he doesn't want to follow Gulfport's rules, then move. Many towns in Florida rely on tourists. Jay had his boat anchored off the public swimming beach and was dumping his raw sewage into that water. His bad behavior, much like that of BP and their oil spill, is costing Gulfport money and could put many people to risk.

You make many assumptions you can't substantiate and you make validations for his poor behavior and fail to hold him responsible. Jay is a veteran and uses the VA for medical care, IF he is in need of mental care; almost every VA hospital has the facilities to care for him IN the hospital. If this is not a mental healthcare issue, the military has retirement homes for destitute people (if that is what Jay is).

Gulfport (nor any U.S. city) does NOT dump human waste into the waterways, it is treated and much of the water recovered is recycled as sprinkler water, etc. The solid wastes are treated, then reused as fertilizer or burnt as a fuel.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:23   #115
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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The problem is that we don't enforce the laws we already have, these are but a few.....
ERGS FUGGIN ZACTLY.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:32   #116
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
Many things to say here. I've heard things said like this plenty of times. I think that sometimes people cannot step into other people's shoes and see how they are seeing. I've read about many scientific research studies about the difference social intelligence of people based on political alignments. Its amazing how a disagreement in policy will make people feel differently towards each other.

People as a whole have trouble crossing the empathy boundary when they see others who aren't in the same mind state. This is a natural human behavior. I think you may be guilty of it too.



Rebel Heart doesn't lack empathy. He may lack it in this particular case. Or perhaps he sees the man and feels bad but understands that good policy is linked to results, not feelings. Sort of a Milton Freedman school of thought. Or perhaps he is empathizing with the people that must suffer the burden of supporting the poor Captain Jay's disability, either through tolerance, or through efforts at rehabilitation. In this case it goes further to affect cruisers via giving the land owners ammunition to fight their rights legally. Those that have disabilities that demand the attention of society do burden society on some level and burdens just love legislation.

In any event, lacking empathy may not be the real case you're trying to make. What you're saying is that Rebel Heart doesn't feel bad enough for Captain Jay to try to help him. And perhaps that is accurate. However, if we all did this, it may result in bad policy. Try to understand that it takes all types to solve problems. Rebel Heart is one voice as are you.



This is a false dilemma. Kicking Jay off of a boat that is unsafe for him and for those around him does not mean they want him to become homeless and destitute. What it means is that they see a problem (he is a danger) and wish for a solution (take him out of the dangerous situation). Thus this discussion. It isn't about hurting Jay. Its about Jay not hurting himself and others. Some people don't think past that. What will Jay do when kicked off his boat?

In regards to the city dumping... Yes, it is an issue. However, just because someone is doing a huge wrong doesn't make a little wrong right. Dumping crap off the boat is wrong. Period. So is crapping in a doorway.



Remember that forgiveness and tolerance are two different things. I forgive Jay his problems but I would not tolerate his harming/endangering of others. Empathy, tolerance, and love all come in many flavors. Some of them seem colder than others. If we had only tolerance and refused to judge anyone, we would embrace evil as well as good. Judgement, tolerance, and self governance are great gifts to the minds of men that allow us to choose superior paths.

Finally, I'm not a mental health expert, just an armchair philosopher, but has anyone considered contacting the local government or non-profit mental health agencies in an attempt to get them to contact Captain Jay?
I wanted to write that but could not do it well.

Thanks.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:35   #117
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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I think the problem lies in deciding where to draw the line. How much control over other people's lives should we exercise? My line would be drawn in a much different place then is currently drawn in American culture.
That is where all the human arguments always start.

Where the grey stops and the black (or white) begins.
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Old 11-10-2012, 14:37   #118
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Gulfport (nor any U.S. city) does NOT dump human waste into the waterways, it is treated and much of the water recovered is recycled as sprinkler water, etc. The solid wastes are treated, then reused as fertilizer or burnt as a fuel.
Grand Rapids Michigan, like many cities, has an aging sewer system. Large parts of the systems storm sewer still connect to the sewage system. This means that when there is significant precipitation the treatment plants capacity is exceeded. During these times large pumps are used to pump untreated waste directly into the Grand River which leads to Lake Michigan.

By the way, where is the Gulfport with all of the derelict boats? Google Earth keeps showing me a small beach in the Tampa Bay area. However, there are only about 30 boats anchored out in the April 2012 image. Of those boats, only 2 or three sailboats don't have masts up. Is this the area?
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Old 11-10-2012, 15:15   #119
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Congratulations, you have managed to make Jay a victim and society (and their rules) the bad guy.

From what I saw Jay got plenty of help, from many "rule following" people, and yet he still won't comply. If he doesn't want to follow Gulfport's rules, then move. Many towns in Florida rely on tourists. Jay had his boat anchored off the public swimming beach and was dumping his raw sewage into that water. His bad behavior, much like that of BP and their oil spill, is costing Gulfport money and could put many people to risk.

You make many assumptions you can't substantiate and you make validations for his poor behavior and fail to hold him responsible. Jay is a veteran and uses the VA for medical care, IF he is in need of mental care; almost every VA hospital has the facilities to care for him IN the hospital. If this is not a mental healthcare issue, the military has retirement homes for destitute people (if that is what Jay is).

Gulfport (nor any U.S. city) does NOT dump human waste into the waterways, it is treated and much of the water recovered is recycled as sprinkler water, etc. The solid wastes are treated, then reused as fertilizer or burnt as a fuel.
Did anyone even know that Jay was dumping sewage before his unfortunate beach holiday? Which rules exactly were broken that earned him the degree of animosity he's received? As I said before, it has more to do with people's aversion to people who are different from them, than any real violations. People see a dirty old boat, and a crazy old guy who scares their children and is a little surly, and who might not be pulling his own weight. Then they think about how hard their life is and start to resent that maybe this guy is somehow getting over and the bile begins to rise in their throat. The lynch party begins to form.

Jay is costing the city tourist revenue? Oh puhlease! How many tourists did Jay scare away? How many thought his derelict boat was "quaint" and decided to stop in Gulfport because of it. You're making stuff up now.



Yes, I think Jay is a victim. We're all victims of over zealous busy bodies, and a controlling nanny state. What happened to live and let live. It seems everyone has a stick up their arse nowadays.

Maybe Jay doesn't want the VA's so called psych help or any psych help at all? As a card carrying veteran myself I can assure you that while the VA's socialized medicine does a passable job in most cases, they fall woefully short of quality care in the dental and psych departments. It's possible that Jay doesn't agree with you that a home for the destitute is a better option than what he has.



Just an FYI , when I was in Florida in the 90s I remember that Gulfport had a sewage overflow due to heavy rains overloading the system. Most cities have this problem but we don't talk about it in polite company.
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Old 11-10-2012, 15:39   #120
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Did anyone even know that Jay was dumping sewage before his unfortunate beach holiday? Which rules exactly were broken that earned him the degree of animosity he's received? As I said before, it has more to do with people's aversion to people who are different from them, than any real violations. People see a dirty old boat, and a crazy old guy who scares their children and is a little surly, and who might not be pulling his own weight. Then they think about how hard their life is and start to resent that maybe this guy is somehow getting over and the bile begins to rise in their throat. The lynch party begins to form.

Jay is costing the city tourist revenue? Oh puhlease! How many tourists did Jay scare away? How many thought his derelict boat was "quaint" and decided to stop in Gulfport because of it. You're making stuff up now.



Yes, I think Jay is a victim. We're all victims of over zealous busy bodies, and a controlling nanny state. What happened to live and let live. It seems everyone has a stick up their arse nowadays.

Maybe Jay doesn't want the VA's so called psych help or any psych help at all? As a card carrying veteran myself I can assure you that while the VA's socialized medicine does a passable job in most cases, they fall woefully short of quality care in the dental and psych departments. It's possible that Jay doesn't agree with you that a home for the destitute is a better option than what he has.



Just an FYI , when I was in Florida in the 90s I remember that Gulfport had a sewage overflow due to heavy rains overloading the system. Most cities have this problem but we don't talk about it in polite company.
Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to review the threads having to do with this individual/incident before expressing any outrage. This person has well earned the animous of the community of Gulfport as well as those that went so far out of their way to help him and, finally, anyone that cares a whit for the welfare of innocent animals. I felt sorry for the fellow to begin with but once more of the story came to light, it was clear this fellow's "problems" are largely if not entirely self inflicted.

FYI "liberties" in US civil society come with attendant "obligations/responsibilities". One cannot (or should not) have one without fulfilling the other. When society should step in is the point at which someone's behavior becomes materially adverse to the health and welfare of their neighbors/community. Discharging raw sewerage as well as other trash into the restricted waters of that community is, at the least, that point.

I suspect you would be somewhat less compassionate if this "person" planted himself in you anchorage or neighborhood and conducted himself in the manner he has in Gulfport to date. Fortunately--for Gulfport--the subject of this discussion seems to have gone by the boards. Hopefully he will not return.

FWIW...
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"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
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