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Old 11-10-2012, 06:46   #91
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I'm still trying to understand the controversy over "Captain Jay" on this thread. Just who is Catain Jay and what does he have to do with the sign/photo at the start of this thread.
In addition to the previous replies and colorful descriptions of "Captain" Jay, he was the resident of a boat in west FL that was beached by a storm a few months ago. When he couldn't afford to have his boat towed from the shallows the local municipality threatened to have his boat declared a derelict and destroyed.

So CF members got together, dozens went out with anchors and boats and pulled the boat out into deep water. In gratitude Capt Jay is not accusing the group of damaging his boat, which was pretty much a floating junk heap before he washed aground.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:56   #92
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
In addition to the previous replies and colorful descriptions of "Captain" Jay, he was the resident of a boat in west FL that was beached by a storm a few months ago. When he couldn't afford to have his boat towed from the shallows the local municipality threatened to have his boat declared a derelict and destroyed.

So CF members got together, dozens went out with anchors and boats and pulled the boat out into deep water. In gratitude Capt Jay is not accusing the group of damaging his boat, which was pretty much a floating junk heap before he washed aground.
Just so I'm clear, was that suppose to be "not" or was it suppose to be "now"?
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:10   #93
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
My understanding is that he is an older male, not wealthy, non-sailing liveaboard lifestyle, who doesn't care very much for his neighbours and simply dumps all his waste right there where he sits. I understand that his boat cannot sail under its own power and is never moved.

The overall impression I have is of someone who lives dirty and simply does not care about anyone around him and continues to foul the environment, disregarding the health and well-being of his fellow sailors and the townsfolk of the area. I also have the impression that he is not a sailor and that he has never sailed his liveaboard anywhere but I may be wrong. I am sure there are people here who will correct me if I have the wrong impression but I have gleaned this from reading about this issue with his filthy lifestyle.

Actually -- since I was the OP -- I'll explain (that's a good way to find out what it was about -- go to the OP) -- it was an UPDATE on a man in a really tough situation that a significant number of people here tried to help.

But in describing the situation you left out that his boat was infested with both rats and roaches, including dead rats, and that he also had a dog whose medical care had been seriously neglected.

For all the repeated claims that some people here "just want him to go away," a considerable amount of energy was put into trying to find a way that he could safely and legally stay on his boat.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:27   #94
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Correct me if I am wrong but we already have laws in place to prevent much of this.

*No anchor light = Fine for each offense. No pay, impound and confiscate vessel.

*Raw Sewage = These can be HUGE fines. No pay impound and confiscate vessel. Any vessel anchored in the same spot for long periods of time should be able to provide PROOF of pump out with receipts. Dyes can be placed in the tank and the over-board seacock needs to be locked to meet federal law. The USCG can board a vessel at any time for any reason so there is plenty of opportunity to catch the offenders pumping raw sewage.

*Vessel unfit for use = The USCG has the ability to condemn vessels just as your town or city does for a house. Just look at the vessel "Raw Faith" they condemned that boat two or three times before the guy finally sunk it... There are numerous things that could deem a vessel unfit..

State registration, excise tax, sales tax or documentation = These all make the boat "illegal" if not complied with.

Florida ARV Law = Since 2010 Florida has had an on-the-books law to deal with "At Risk Vessels". The first is a yellow sticker asking the owner to "comply" if the owner does not fix the "issues" or comply an orange placard is placed on the vessel and the vessel can be disposed of.


The above items, if enforced, which they clearly are not, should preclude most of the problems without affecting legitimate cruisers or live aboard cruisers who obey the laws.. Last time I was up and down the ICW I did not see any of these boats with anchor lights, many without spars or working motors and some with so much bottom growth moving them would have been a near impossible feat. Many also had ratty, worn and already chafed anchor lines.

The problem is that we don't enforce the laws we already have, these are but a few.....

  • Anchor Light Present but not in Use: 327.33(3)FS
  • Expired Registration 328.72(13)FS
  • Improper Display of Registration 328.48FS
  • Interference With Navigation 327.44FS
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:51   #95
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Raku,

Here is a link to tides at Fernandina Beach, you can see they can have a 7' tidal range.

Tide Times and Tide Chart for Fernandina Beach, Amelia River, Florida
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:55   #96
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Raku,

Here is a link to tides at Fernandina Beach, you can see they can have a 7' tidal range.

Tide Times and Tide Chart for Fernandina Beach, Amelia River, Florida

Thank you! I've never been there and had no idea. Amazed that such tides exist in Florida. Now I want to go there!

Floating docks the norm there?
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:59   #97
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but we already have laws in place to prevent much of this.

*No anchor light = Fine for each offense. No pay, impound and confiscate vessel.

*Raw Sewage = These can be HUGE fines. No pay impound and confiscate vessel. Any vessel anchored in the same spot for long periods of time should be able to provide PROOF of pump out with receipts. Dyes can be placed in the tank and the over-board seacock needs to be locked to meet federal law. The USCG can board a vessel at any time for any reason so there is plenty of opportunity to catch the offenders pumping raw sewage.

*Vessel unfit for use = The USCG has the ability to condemn vessels just as your town or city does for a house. Just look at the vessel "Raw Faith" they condemned that boat two or three times before the guy finally sunk it... There are numerous things that could deem a vessel unfit..

State registration, excise tax, sales tax or documentation = These all make the boat "illegal" if not complied with.

Florida ARV Law = Since 2010 Florida has had an on-the-books law to deal with "At Risk Vessels". The first is a yellow sticker asking the owner to "comply" if the owner does not fix the "issues" or comply an orange placard is placed on the vessel and the vessel can be disposed of.


The above items, if enforced, which they clearly are not, should preclude most of the problems without affecting legitimate cruisers or live aboard cruisers who obey the laws.. Last time I was up and down the ICW I did not see any of these boats with anchor lights, many without spars or working motors and some with so much bottom growth moving them would have been a near impossible feat. Many also had ratty, worn and already chafed anchor lines.

The problem is that we don't enforce the laws we already have, these are but a few.....

  • Anchor Light Present but not in Use: 327.33(3)FS
  • Expired Registration 328.72(13)FS
  • Improper Display of Registration 328.48FS
  • Interference With Navigation 327.44FS
Exactly.

The local police have washed their hands of it, probably due to budget cuts (most money comes from property and sales tax, and this isn't a wealthy town). As I said, the marine police boat they have is rarely in the water and they don't even routinely have an officer on duty with the skills to operate it. Fish and Wildlife concern themselves with boat collisions but not these other infractions. The Coast Guard does little here except train.

I'm moving, so would not be an effective leader for this. Maybe ongoing discussion here and elsewhere will lead to action. I'm in the generation that used individual action (by a lot of individuals) to force the end of the Viet Nam War. This seems like a smaller target ...
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:26   #98
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I thought the derelicts in Richardson Bay were all evicted? Was I misinformed or did they come back?

By the way, my first trip to Sausalito in 1980 I seem to recall there were already a bunch of old rundown looking boats in Richardson.
Never. The derelicts in Clipper Cove were evicted a few years ago, which just means they moved over to Richardson Bay.

Closest we ever come to systematic eviction are the winter storms. I've seen as many as five boats washed up over on Tiburon. Others will sink, of course. Not uncommon after a good rain to see just the top half of a mast sticking out of the water.

There's been some talk of clearing the derelicts out before the Americas Cup next summer so that spectators will have a place to anchor. I'll believe it when I see it.
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:42   #99
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Never. The derelicts in Clipper Cove were evicted a few years ago, which just means they moved over to Richardson Bay.

Closest we ever come to systematic eviction are the winter storms. I've seen as many as five boats washed up over on Tiburon. Others will sink, of course. Not uncommon after a good rain to see just the top half of a mast sticking out of the water.

There's been some talk of clearing the derelicts out before the Americas Cup next summer so that spectators will have a place to anchor. I'll believe it when I see it.
Guess I heard about Clipper Cove and my aging memory translated that into Richardson.

I don't get it. The boats are clearly in violation of so many different regulations so how come the reluctance to deal with the problem? Maybe the powers that be figure taking action will move the problem from the bay to the local streets? Could it be the cost to dispose of the condemned boats?
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:14   #100
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Guess I heard about Clipper Cove and my aging memory translated that into Richardson.

I don't get it. The boats are clearly in violation of so many different regulations so how come the reluctance to deal with the problem? Maybe the powers that be figure taking action will move the problem from the bay to the local streets? Could it be the cost to dispose of the condemned boats?

It could easily be the cost of disposing of the boats. I know Gulfport only goes there as a last resort.
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:50   #101
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Guess I heard about Clipper Cove and my aging memory translated that into Richardson.

I don't get it. The boats are clearly in violation of so many different regulations so how come the reluctance to deal with the problem? Maybe the powers that be figure taking action will move the problem from the bay to the local streets? Could it be the cost to dispose of the condemned boats?
"Only proles and animals are free", George Orwell

If you or I violate a boating law we will be fined, and our "Yacht" confiscated. If an indigent does it, there is no profit. If fined he simply wont pay, you can't seize a non-existant bank account.

If you arrest him, he will just move from the street, to a jail, or homeless shelter, and it will suddenly cost the city a great deal more money to deal with him.


The solution; paint all boaters with the same brush, levy more fines and regulations against the ones who can pay, and maybe you will have some money left over to deal with the real problem.
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:17   #102
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

A bit different situation, but I understand that communities just outside of St. Augustine are now complaining because of all the newly anchored boats that were chased away from St. Augustine by the new anti-anchoring ordinances as part of the Pilot Program. Don't be fooled--there are people using the argument about getting rid of derelicts to get rid of all boats at anchor. There are plenty of existing laws that can take care of any true derelict boats.
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:38   #103
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

I still think if these folks that are at anchor in your area bother ya so MUCH ! get active in your local stuff, make some noise in city meetings, county meetings ect! posting on this forum will do little to cure the problem ya have there !! Now Thats what I have done and would do again if something like this botherd me as much as it seems to bother some of the folks on here!! But I will say any changes that happen will probly be against anchoring at all! As thats the way things seem to be going in Florida!! so be a little carefull of what ya ask for ! Just my 2 cents
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:39   #104
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
"Only proles and animals are free", George Orwell

If you or I violate a boating law we will be fined, and our "Yacht" confiscated. If an indigent does it, there is no profit. If fined he simply wont pay, you can't seize a non-existant bank account.

If you arrest him, he will just move from the street, to a jail, or homeless shelter, and it will suddenly cost the city a great deal more money to deal with him.


The solution; paint all boaters with the same brush, levy more fines and regulations against the ones who can pay, and maybe you will have some money left over to deal with the real problem.
I suspect that much of the animosity directed towards boaters anchored has less to do with discharge of waste or derelict boats than the unfortunate habit of people turning on anyone different than themselves. It would be the same with a homeless encampment or a hippy commune.

There are people all over like Rebel Heart, who lack empathy. They themselves are high functioning people and can't see, or don't care that everyone doesn't have the ability to function at that level. Some have physical limitations, many have only subtle mental issues like attention deficit disorder, or depression which may keep them from being able to keep their boat clean and sparkling.

It doesn't matter to the non empaths. If they can pull themselves up by the bootstraps then so too should everyone else. If those dirty livaboards can't clean up their act then take their boat/home and lock them up in a jail or institution. As long as they're not visible, thats whats important.

Poor Jay clearly suffers from mental issues and doesnt pay taxes, and possibly is a net fiscal loss for the town but what ya gonna do...take his boat and make him homeless but on land? Great move! Now he can crap in a doorway where it'll really cause you trouble and sleep on your front porch. Meanwhile the city dumps several tons of human waste into the very same waterway and receives no attention from the locals.

I don't know if tolerance and compassion is something learned or innate but its disheartening how unforgiving some people can be.

There but for the grace of god go I.

OK that's my rant.
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:51   #105
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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I suspect that much of the animosity directed towards boaters anchored has less to do with discharge of waste or derelict boats than the unfortunate habit of people turning on anyone different than themselves. It would be the same with a homeless encampment or a hippy commune.

There are people all over like Rebel Heart, who lack empathy. They themselves are high functioning people and can't see, or don't care that everyone doesn't have the ability to function at that level. Some have physical limitations, many have only subtle mental issues like attention deficit disorder, or depression which may keep them from being able to keep their boat clean and sparkling.

It doesn't matter to the non empaths. If they can pull themselves up by the bootstraps then so too should everyone else. If those dirty livaboards can't clean up their act then take their boat/home and lock them up in a jail or institution. As long as they're not visible, thats whats important.

Poor Jay clearly suffers from mental issues and doesnt pay taxes, and possibly is a net fiscal loss for the town but what ya gonna do...take his boat and make him homeless but on land? Great move! Now he can crap in a doorway where it'll really cause you trouble and sleep on your front porch. Meanwhile the city dumps several tons of human waste into the very same waterway and receives no attention from the locals.

I don't know if tolerance and compassion is something learned or innate but its disheartening how unforgiving some people can be.

There but for the grace of god go I.

OK that's my rant.
Very well put.
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