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Old 09-10-2012, 13:04   #61
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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You obviously don't live in a hurricane or tornado prone area. Houses end up in the street all the time as a result of storms. Who exactly do you think pays for most of the cleanup after one of these storms? Did you ever hear of FEMA? Who do you think pays for FEMA?

I'm not sure why there's a problem in Gulfport, as the law is perfectly clear. You cannot dump untreated sewage in any Florida waters period. On the Gulf side of Florida this is 9 miles from the nearest land. There are water cops all over Florida. If the city can't enforce it the Pinellas County has water cops. If they won't do anything then the FWC has the marine patrol that can enforce it. Florida law requires that every boat over 26 feet has a working toilet on board. If is permanently installed then they have the right to inspect it to see if it's operating properly, which can include a dye test. Why do well founded cruisers get boarded all the time in Florida for head inspections yet no one can get a cop out to inspect this guy's head? Maybe it's because they know that this guy is totally broke and there's no revenue opportunity here, but that's just the cynic in me talking.

Dumping is defined as pumping the head overboard....

But if someone just hangs over the side (or goes skinny dipping) and does their business.... legal...

The effect on the water is the same....


With contamination, fecal bacteria now is transmitted via large water-based mammals.

One study has the following conclusion: Juvenile northern elephant seals that have entered the water are being colonized by antimicrobial-resistant and pathogenic fecal bacteria that may be acquired from terrestrial sources transmitted via river and surface waters.

In fact seals defecting were blamed for high bacteria levels that resulted in beach closures this summer in Cape Cod. I have not seen the scientific studies behind this... but...another point of view. (no pun intended....)
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:06   #62
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

[QUOTE=EzzyD;1055297]
But if someone just hangs over the side (or goes skinny dipping) and does their business.... legal.../QUOTE]


please provide a link to prove this
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:35   #63
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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please provide a link to prove this
I believe I did on Post #36

The link I used was from EPA. This info has been confirmed to me by Coast Guard as well.

Not trying to give any opinion, just facts.
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:37   #64
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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I believe I did on Post #36

The link I used was from EPA. This info has been confirmed to me by Coast Guard as well.

Not trying to give any opinion, just facts.

The fact is, if you jump in the water and pee -- or poop -- no one's gonna know unless the evidence goes floating by. Even then no one will know it was you.

But we could still do what we could do.
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Old 09-10-2012, 14:47   #65
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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I believe I did on Post #36

The link I used was from EPA. This info has been confirmed to me by Coast Guard as well.

Not trying to give any opinion, just facts.
all this shows is that it isn't specifically addrressed under that CWA and vessel laws, not that it is legal to hang you ass over the side and take a dump as you stated

just because a boating law doesn't address something doesn't make it legal!


I can just see you try to agrue this to a judge about how the intent of the law doesn't apply.
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Old 09-10-2012, 19:01   #66
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

if the locals genuinely think there is a problem (and it's not just a vocal minority with SFA better to do than whine - it happens ) then if the City / County does have jurisdiction then not beyond the wit of man (and woman!) to come up with a few rules and regulations that would catch those without a pot to piss in......and then you enforce them into fines, leading to seizure of assets (boat) to Auction and then to dumpster.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:28   #67
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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just because a boating law doesn't address something doesn't make it legal!
Well, yeah, actually it kind of does. One of the basic legal principles in the United States is that if something is not specifically prohibited then it is allowed--it is not illegal. Hence, it is not illegal dumping if you stand on the railing and pee over the side. It does not violate any of the marine sanitation laws. Peeing first into a cup, and then dumping that cup over the side, however, is specifically prohibited.

(Of course, public indecencies rules may apply if someone sees you. But that applies whether you are peeing or not, and is completely irrelevant to the marine sanitation laws.)
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:43   #68
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

"and then you enforce them into fines, leading to seizure of assets (boat) to Auction and then to dumpster. "
David, you should spend a year in the Colonies learning how different things are here.
There's a limit to the practicalsize of fines that can be levied, and often once a fine has been leveied there's a whole other problem when it is uncollectible, because the person is "judgement proof" or simply broke. (The two are not the same.)
So then you levy a fine, which you can't collect, and the judge's calendar gets backed up while he deals with the case, and then the marshall or someone gets backed up trying to go post a seizure notice on the boat, and he has to hire equipment to eventually locate and seize the boat, and then it has to be stored someplace, and finally it has to be hauled away someplace else, often far away, and someone has to pay the HAZMAT disposaal fees for it, which ain't cheap.
A great concept that can literally cost $50-100,000 in fees, expenses, salaries, and other overall costs all to seize a five thousand dollar junker. Now, what politician is going to spend $100,000 out of his budget to get rid of a $5000 nuisance, when he can just ignore it and say "Take your kinds to a better beach." ?

Your logic is flawless, it is also totally invalid here in the current society.

It would be far better for all parties to just say "OK, here's five grand, we're smashing up your boat. Go away now." Or as many small town sheriffs have done, you hand someone a hundred bucks at the Trailways bus station and say "Go buy a ticket, you're leaving town now."
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:45   #69
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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Your logic is flawless, it is also totally invalid here in the current society.
In that case the locals have greater problems than a few folks pooping in the sea - and making the place look untidy.

If the locals can get a functioning court system going (or Sharia? ) then the fine and seize for non-payment becomes viable. The cost of disposal remains an issue. I would either go for haulout ashore and impounding a days truck ride away in a field with the boat then bought by a committee of the concerned citizens - all armed with environmentally freindly chainsaws .........or simply seized where is, and the same committee of the concerned buy at auction and then relocate (a few miles or so out ).
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:40   #70
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

"In that case the locals have greater problems than "
Well, we already know that. Their local issue became a national one, because they did't deal with it themselves.

As to haulouts and disposal...There are plenty of places in the world where they would find good use for old boats. North Korea, Bangladesh, large parts of Africa. Shipping courtesy of bleeding hearts or venezualan foreign aid programs. All sorts of creative options.

Of course, that's a horribly Yankee White Man's Burden perspective, and when I say that with fond memories of Kipling and what has come back upon Britain (ooh, that bitchin karma!) one has to remember this kerfuffle is in self-yclept FloriDUH. Where today the papers bemoaned how 25% of all Florida drivers have no insurance, amny have cleverly forged insurance IDs, and how terribly difficult it is to do anything about that. Apparently the databases, 3d-bar-code scanners, and other solutions that other states use, don't work so far away from the American Mainland.

Something about the long Spanish legacy of Florida, and the young status of the state (older then Alaska, but way younger than the rest of the east coast) mmean that things are just done differently, with other priorities. And the best thing we foreigners can do about Floriduh? That's right, drop by, leave your tourist dollars, and gtf out agian without trying to impose any White Man's Burden down there. Might as well try to tell chinamen about forks instead of chop sticks, it just ain't gonna happen.

So, there's some floaters in Gulfport and the tourists will flock to North Carolina instead. Works for me. Works for you? What did mark Twain say about teaching a pig to play the piano, and just annoying the pig?
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:49   #71
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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I would either go for haulout ashore and impounding a days truck ride away in a field with the boat then bought by a committee of the concerned citizens - all armed with environmentally freindly chainsaws .........or simply seized where is, and the same committee of the concerned buy at auction and then relocate (a few miles or so out ).
That would be a highly regulated field. The whole business of boat salvage/breaking up falls under a LOT of environmental controls. A group with chainsaws would likely find themselves infront of the same judge and being fined for failing to follow codes themselves...

Nuthin is ever simple, is it?
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:59   #72
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

I get a kick out of how people hammer on people on the hook. I pumpout as a rule while anchored. I know for a fact more fecal matter goes into the water from people in the marina than from those on the hook. Everybody comes for the weekend, there's no rush to the bathrooms in the morning and nobodies at the pumpout sunday afternoon. The way the tides run here getting to the pumpout inside the marina is no easy feat. I just wait for a nice calm day at dead low tide. Weekenders can't do that. All this holier than thou stuff is just plain funny.
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:04   #73
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

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I get a kick out of how people hammer on people on the hook. I pumpout as a rule while anchored. I know for a fact more fecal matter goes into the water from people in the marina than from those on the hook. Everybody comes for the weekend, there's no rush to the bathrooms in the morning and nobodies at the pumpout sunday afternoon. The way the tides run here getting to the pumpout inside the marina is no easy feat. I just wait for a nice calm day at dead low tide. Weekenders can't do that. All this holier than thou stuff is just plain funny.

I think you've missed something there. The people complaining are the people who live in the town, not the people on the water. And I've got to say, I've gone to other marinas for the weekend and not pumped out before I left. But I also didn't dump anything in the marina. You're making assumptions just as some of the people in town are making assumptions.

And, if I pump out and that other guy dumps into the water via any means -- I *am* a better person than him.
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:23   #74
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

I know just about everybody that has a boat in the marina and have done canvas work on over 40 of them. Most will freely admit to it in a closed conversation. Many boats are crammed full of people on weekends. There's one bathroom, you do the math. These people outnumber people on the hook on this river(2) probably 200 to 1. There are 2 marinas with about 400 boats between them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 18:30   #75
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Re: The controversy over "Captain Jay" continues

Many times I take (mostly) good natured grief for being from San Francisco, where all the crazy liberals live with all the overly intrusive regulations...

But I am here to tell you that I have never seen floaters or raw pump out in my marina. A few electrosans, yes, which while reckoned to be safe, are still pretty nasty in my opinion.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen occasionally, but there is a migration to the marina facilities in the morning and I don't mind getting into the water in my slip when I need to.

Maybe not so crazy after all...
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